What is the point?

Well the idea of the 'canned response' has been well described. An editor is expected to think and work out the basic things themselves and in that respect the application is a test. My biggest contributions to the ODP have probably been the things that, on second thoughts, I decided not to do .

Like most forums a major problem is always establishing a rapport between posters since the written language does not easily communicate what was meant. What one person thinks is direct, another thinks is rude, what one person thinks is evasive woffle, another will think of as a well-crafted thoughtful piece. The difference in perceptions lead to misconceptions. If you see value in the aims of the ODP and what it is doing, then certain responses will make more sense than if you do not. It is difficult to get it right.

I responded to what I got out of the thread as the main point you are making seems to be that we appear to be unaware of the problem. It is true that this forum does not discuss the matter in detail which is why I pointed out that it is a live topic on our internal forums.

A root problem may be, as you say, public relations. Here however is where differences in perception come in. There are forums out there where ODP-bashing is the norm in order to 'boost ratings' by being contraversial. I am not concerned about this because at the end of the day I am helping to build a directory. If I was concerned, I'd spend more time fighting a propaganda war than editing. My audience is not the pundits but the surfers. Last month I found a site which included a link to the category I started editting in, describing it as 'a list of all the clubs' - wrong but extremely gratifying.

To some extent, I would feel that people who want to be editors despite adverse propaganda would perhaps make better editors than those who have to be wooed and kept sweet (but note I am a firmware engineer).

I'm rambling a bit, but the main aim is to try and show you that we tend to have a different outlook on things and, basically it takes 'two to tango'.


regards

pvgool said:

You mean "a lot of webmasters".

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No I dont mean "a lot of webmasters" you are missing my point. (please dont tell me what I mean) When I say people I mean surfers, potential editors, or maybe just human beings in genral. Who may or may not be webmasters, that is irrelevant.

All I say is be nice to people in general, and someone has something to say about that too :-(

Eric-the-Bun

You could be the PR guy
That being said. I when I mention a PR guy it isn’t to sway the incoherent ranting about how the ODP "sucks." What I mean is sway the people who have no opinion or maybe dont even know what the ODP is as of yet. There are new people joining us online every day. I do understand what you mean about not wanting to have to woo people who read the propaganda, but those are not necessarily the people I was referring to. I just think that, if as a whole, people here were nicer, it would go a long way. I can imagine how some of you may become jaded and probably fed up with people complaining about something you love so dearly... but that is life. Don’t let people get to you (editors as a whole.)

On a side note, to maybe get my point across a little better. I have seen people come here and ask where their site went, or why it hasn’t been listed, and they are immediately chastised for their ignorance. Sometimes when reading their posts I can see that they are completely clueless and mean no harm at all, total ignorance, not malice. Yet they are hit so hard by editors and mods that I can imagine that their perception of the ODP as a whole is trashed from day 1.

In reality, there are lots of kinds of information. Suppose a little old lady, with no engineering, management, or mechanical experience takes her car to a garage.

Now, the mechanics in the garage might well have several hundred years' accumulative experience. They might well know, statistically, all the problems that model of car is liable to. They might well have diagnostic equipment the lady had never heard of, and procedures that would be a mystery to her.

It would be inconceivably fatuous and arrogant of the L.O.L. to discourse to the mechanics about the statistics of car failure, the metallurgy of engine parts, the finances and management of auto manufacturers, or the diagnostic procedures.

And, if she were so senile as to embark on such a lecture, it would be a total waste of time and energy for anyone to listen.

Does that mean the mechanic knows everything? Of course not, he might be innocent as an unborn child about the history of beekeeping. Does that mean the old lady knows nothing? Of course not, she might be the best ornithologist on the continent!

So what could the L.O.L. contribute to the garage?

Many things. But in context, one important thing.

"You let this car go out on the street, and it still makes wump-pffzang noises when I hit the afterburner!"

The old lady knows that, and perhaps nobody else in the world does. And that MAY be useful information to a mechanic who cares about his reputation.

Now the mechanic may say, "it's supposed to do that." And this is absolutely NOT an invitation for the L.O.L. to whine about how she doesn't like it to do that, she'd prefer some other noise, or some other car makes a different noise, or ... whatever. There is no grounds for argument either. The car is designed to work that way, the mechanic knows that, he's not going to be persuaded otherwise, and if he were, there'd still be nothing he could or should do about it. If the L.O.L. doesn't like it she can buy another car, or build her own, or walk.

Or again, if the mechanic is in a hurry, he may say "pull it around back and we'll look at it." If he has more time, he may say, "well. that sounds like the hither fenestration gear, but let us run it through the chiral defenestrator and see what we need to do next."

This is not an invitation to the L.O.L. to debate the merits of the paschal ontologizer as a diagnostic tool, or even to suggest using it. A reasonable L.O.L. might ask, "could the barometric hypervisor be the problem?" But there is obviously not going to be a yes-or-no answer. "Yes" is obviously off the cards. "No" is a brief way of saying, "No, don't you know that when the hypervisor wears out, the engine explodes in flames?" But in the end, this is a garage, not a mechanics class, and the mechanic may well not have time to explain basic principles. In reality, the typical answer is going to be "we don't see that much with this model, but we can't predict what the diagnostic procedure will find." And yes, like many nourishing foods, that comes right out of a can. (The only question is: is it the right can?)

The ODP is the same way: a complex system of motivation and guidance and checks and balances and mutual support and feedback. And nobody without serious experience in designing such a system ever has made a systemic contribution to it; it's extremely unlikely that anyone will. It is certain that pontification from a state of ignorance won't contribute to this or any other kind of human knowledge.

But the ODP systems designers have designed for a variety of kinds of knowledge. In particular, it is VERY likely that surfers will know certain kinds of facts: such as: "you guys let that link out on your site, and it is no good."

Now, that is extremely valuable information, in several different ways: we want to know about it, and we want to take advantage of it, NOW.

What will we do with it? For one thing, it's our reputation riding on that car, um, listing; we want to fix it now. For another thing, the editor, um, mechanic, missed something; if there's a pattern of missed things, he may need to know about it to fix future listings -- or, in the worst case, he may need to find another hobby. And there may be a case of systematic webmaster abuse, that requires a systematic response in the form of global procedure changes. (And THIS is how someone who knows nothing about systems or procedures actually CAN and DOES have a positive effect on the system itself!)

It may be "arrogant" to think that someone who's operated a particular process ten thousand times knows more than someone who's never cranked it once. But outside ODP and theoretical theology, the notion that someone who's never cranked the process once knows more about how to design it, than each of hundreds of people who each have run the process tens of thousands of times, is a level so far beyond arrogance that there isn't a term for it in the human language.

Perhaps nobody else has faced this kind of hypersonic overweening, and we'll have to invent an new word to go with our new experience.

But, back to practical matters. Our expectation is that ANYONE may know, or be able to find, problems in the cars, um, listings that the ODP has put on the road. And from the beginning there has been a process for reporting those. Today (well, on most days), because this is such a valuable kind of help, there are multiple processes to offer it. Just like there are multiple processes for editors to find sites -- another valuable activity.

Our experience is that occasionally, someone finds a pattern of multiple listings, each one of which has a similar problem. This is even more valuable help, and may lead directly to fewer future mistakes. And finally, EXTREMELY occasionally someone finds a new process that efficiently finds either very good or very bad sites: that information is published for editors to look at.

But the fact is, most of the sites, good and bad, are still spotted by an experienced editor casting a quick glance over an assorted list of for-all-practical-purposes-random links, and using trained judgment to pick out links that might be worth a closer look. And since that is true, the absolutely essential first step in making a suggestion worth spitting on, is to look at a few tens of thousands of random URLs, trying to pick out a thousand good links. Any theory you have about procedures, you can try out yourself without wasting anyone else's time. And any theory you actually propose to other people, cannot be worth more than just random guessing--unless you can show them the thousand good links.

With that in mind, anyone is welcome to ask themselves, "what do I know about what the ODP actually does, that the editors might not already know?" Then follow that with "can I show evidence that what I think I know actually corresponds to reality?"

People who can answer "yes" on the second question ... may still be wasting everybody's time. You'd be AMAZED at what some people think of as "evidence"!

But people who can't answer "yes" on that second question ... shouldn't be making recommendations at all -- for the sake of their own reputation.

We are not looking for improvements helpfull for webmasters. They have lot of options outside DMOZ to design, optimize and promote their sites.

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Correct.

But we look for improvements that are helpfull for either
1) the directory
2) our customers
3) the editors

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Incorrect. Improvement = change. Change is exceptionally slow, almost impossible within the ODP, whether internally or externally initiated, other than cosmetics that do not make any substantive difference. The lack of improvements are evident in the consistent decline in editor numbers and in productivity in English language categories over the last two years. Ultimately the inability of the ODP to change to meet its own goals more effectively, not those of webmasters, will be its demise. I have no doubt that many ideas for meaningful improvement continue to be discussed internally. I am equally in no doubt, judging from the evidence, that such discussion still results in nothing of value emerging. The ODP needs strong, decisive, leadership willing to take radical action, and the current model does not lend itself to that.

Sometimes when reading their posts I can see that they are completely clueless and mean no harm at all, total ignorance, not malice. Yet they are hit so hard by editors and mods that I can imagine that their perception of the ODP as a whole is trashed from day 1.

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Here I think we are dealing with people who are looking to see what the ODP can do for them not vice versa.

sway the people who have no opinion or maybe dont even know what the ODP is as of yet. There are new people joining us online every day.

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The difficulty is very much why they are coming online. The majority of people come as consumers, quite often never realising that there is more to the internet than computer games or similar services. [It is similar with websites - the number of sites is gowing almost exponentially but the majority are made for e-commerce or Adwords and lend very little value to the internet.]

It can be seen more as a general problem of how people are using the web and this affects every project. Simplistically, the forum poster who cannot be bothered to read the FAQ or previous threads has an attitude that the web is all about them. It would require a great deal of effort to communicate the idea of an altruistic project to them. [This is perhaps the reason that tempers can fray as differences in attitude are more contentious as disagreements appear to be personal attacks.]

Personally, the decision to apply to be an editor was a logical one (this project is doing what I will be doing anyway, could I accept the guidelines and restrictions inherent in working on the project etc.). The reality of working within a project like this is a very difficult concept to sell or even explain in many of the current web cultures. Fundamentally we get down to values and whether people want to be consumers or producers. The web is geared to making new people consumers rather than producers. Many people would also regard being a producer as generating an e-commerce site so projects seeking to improve the web have a low profile.

I tend to think (overly simplistically) that either people know that a project like the ODP is what they want to be doing or they know they don't (however I am a firmware engineer and a folk dancer).

regards

Here I think we are dealing with people who are looking to see what the ODP can do for them not vice versa.

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Today maybe. But who knows what that person may be able to do in the future. You could in theory piss someone off today that may have been the greatest editor in history two years from now. When I first came here I was aggravated that my site wasn’t listed. Now a couple of years later, I just want to help. I think all of what I perceived to be editors and members being rude is what has fueled me, but then again I am not your avg person.

The difficulty is very much why they are coming online. The majority of people come as consumers, quite often never realising that there is more to the internet than computer games or similar services.

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I would disagree, everyone and there mom is a webmaster now days with the likes of blogger or myspace. I would say that the average user is becoming extremely involved with web life. One mans opinion.

Simplistically, the forum poster who cannot be bothered to read the FAQ or previous threads has an attitude that the web is all about them. It would require a great deal of effort to communicate the idea of an altruistic project to them.

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I agree that might be the case the first day they come, but as their knowledge of the web grows they may "get it" some day. Personally I have been doing this for 7 years, and until the second year, I had no clue what was going on or what the ODP was.

I tend to think (overly simplistically) that either people know that a project like the ODP is what they want to be doing or they know they don't

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I agree but, humans change. 7 years ago I would have laughed at being an editor. But now I am older, and I care about the web. I also care about how bad the SE's will stink 5 years from now when they are trying to index 100 billion sites. The thought of how bad SERP will be really scares me. If the ODP could keep up with the every growing web, I see an honest possibility that the majority of surfers could wind up here as the ODP might be the only authority.

I cn see where you are coming from now and think we do actually agree on more things than was first apparant - the main difference being that you are looking at a longer term than I was.

In fact following through the conclusion would seem to be to find a way of reaching the 'newbies' earlier so if they expand their interests on the internet we are better placed to attract their attention. I don't think this forum (or in fact any forum) would do as well as perhaps a proper recruitment site designed specifically for the purpose.

regards

[Sorry have to stop - I need to go and set up for the second day of aa folk dance weekend.]