Why can't I have feedback on my rejected site?

hutcheson

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This third most common of all questions in the forums, continues to baffle me. What are people expecting?

Obviously people who ask it have not a clue about the ODP. "We list sites with unique content, so if you don't have any unique content, you need to add some!" is about the only kind of answer that a real ODP editor could ever give. But surely this is not what people are expecting!

Well, knowledge of the ODP is rare enough: but I can't even understand the question based on the most common ignorant popular concepts of the ODP.

For instance: there is the "ODP Editor As Competitoricide" -- all four million sites were editors' sites added by themselves. But -- surely people who have this view don't expect those abusive editors to suddenly turn helpful about how to make their competitive site MORE competitive? No, this isn't where the notion comes from.

And there's the "ODP editor as Calvinist God" myth -- predestining some sites to listings, some to eternal obscurity. But again, people who believe this can't very well expect the CG to admit "I don't like the color of your style sheets..." Or can they?

Is there some heretical sect that has "ODP editor as Arbitor Elegentae" as a prime tenet of its creed? -- and this is the source of the question? What would start an idea like this? Is it newbie webmasters keenly aware that they really don't have a clue about website design and probably made a bad hash of it -- but thinking that we list all cool-looking sites regardless of content ... and hoping we'll explain what we think looks cool? But if this were true, and if we really wanted to help people, why wouldn't we just post a page describing how to make sites look really cool? (Like Google's list of things to do to facilitate spidering a site.)

So, simply because I can't fathom how idiocy would explain it, I keep falling back on the malicious conspiracy theory: that the people who ask are all affiliate spammers, probing for clues as to how we spot their spam so quickly, so they can disguise it better next time.

But I don't want to believe THAT large a percentage of our visitors are malicious spammers, either. And in fact, many of the sites about which people ask this question DON'T bear the usual earmarks of the mass spammings. So even if I were more willing to believe in mass villiany, the evidence doesn't seem to support it.

Anybody have a clue as to what sort of -- I hesitate to use the word 'thought' , perhaps 'neuropathological activity' -- leads to this question being asked so often?

Comments from people who have asked the question, or who would have asked the question if fate had not mercifully intervened, are especially welcomed.

Because I just can't figure it out. And obviously there's SOMETHING about the ODP that people just DON'T GET.
 

drmike

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Greets:

I have two thoughts. I'm not trying to be insulting but I'm one of those masses you may be talking about now. I've tried to get a site listed now for over 2 years now with no success, no feedback, nothing from dmoz. I'm really feed up with you folks but, knowing that a large number of the search engines out there use your data, I'm still trying.

1 - The addition process sucks. I'm sorry to say that but it does. I host a site based on the MTV show, Daria, and I'm trying to get the site listed. (This is not the 2 year site by the way) I don't mind filling out a special form or waiting a bit or anything like that. But when you compare the six months dmoz says may be nessecary to take a look over my site with the maybe 2 weeks it took to get listed by Google, month it took to get listed by Yahoo, etc., it's very frustrating. Now, I know dmoz is all manual adds to your database and each add requires a manual look over (Remember how Yahoo started this way?) but most of us expect things to happen a lot quicker in today's age of instant (or near instant) response.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'd rather have someone manually adds links into the database. Yahoo for the longest time was pointing to a blank graphic buryied deep within my site as their top link and Google is still trying to find http://tdjc.net/index.php/index.php/index.php/index.php. (I'm still trying to figure out that one myself.) Feedback is omportant and being able to communicate with someone is as important as well. Ever try emailing Yahoo and Google in an attempt to get them to fix a link? Don't even bother.

I did read in a forum post that editors can take links/ reviews in any order they want. That does bother me. You could have someone with a wonderful site who's put their heart and soul into it and it could take forever simply because the editor hates their topic. A better method might be having the editor take them in order or maybe any submit not reviewed within a specific length of time gets bumped upstairs or something. I'm sure you have at least one editor not pulling their own weight. :)

Any people are probably use to spamming the Yahoo's and Google's out there. I wonder if maybe this spamming is coming from those webforms that people fill out trying to get their sites into search engines. If so, maybe a few IP blocks might be helpful?

2 - What's wrong with feedback from the editor? I think that that would be a great idea. I'm guessing that you send out an email saying "Your site was not selected." or something like it to the submitter? How would you like to receive such a letter about a site that you've walked on for years, waited for six months waiting for a review and get that in your inbox? I'm betting that you would be pretty pissed. How about if a site reviewer did that for dmoz? I mean it's just another search engine. There's thousands of them on the net. What's so special about this one? (I'm hoping you see my point here. :)

Just lots of random thoughts as I do my email. I hope you can make sence of all this.

-drmike
 

hutcheson

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Thanks muchly for your comments. Some of them aren't, I think, immediately relevant here. (I've argued elsewhere how critically important our NON-first-come-first-served approach is to the ODP directory quality, and you can probably find that if you search.)

But I'll pick up on one thing for more specific discussion.

>I'm guessing that you send out an email saying "Your site was not selected." or something like it to the submitter?

Why would you guess something like that? This is part of what I'm trying to figure out.

See, we'd NEVER do that! We wouldn't consider doing that! It would waste our time, and cause us great amounts of grief from the more vengeful among those p-o'd webmasters (who are, after all, from our point of view, spammers!) From our point of view it would be harmful, painful, dangerous, useless, and time-consuming -- any of which would be sufficient to keep us from doing it.

Do you get daily e-mails from viagra retail sites, or quack crash diets?

And, I'm guessing here, for each one of those e-mails you promptly reply with "thank you, but I'm not interested"?

No?

Why not?

Why ever not?

What is it that makes people think ODP editors are so different? That's what I'm trying to get at!
 

lisahinely

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hutcheson, I think for the most part it is innocent. It is because folks take ODP's "Humans Do It Better" motto to heart. I think they note that ODP editors are humans, volunteers, and they project positive experiences they have had with (or as) volunteers. Off the top of their head, they just don't think about the sheer volume, or that a few too many submitters don't have innocent intent.
 

hutcheson

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I agree that there is strong evidence it's often innocent. But something else is going on -- people think we're rejecting good sites. Now, I thought what drmike said about the long delays was irrelevant, but maybe not: is it the long delays that causes people to think sites are being rejected -- and to think that therefore good sites are being rejected -- and therefore to start believing in the Arbiter Elegentae model?

There are really two issues here: (1) why would we offer detailed criticism (which is what I was asking about) and (2) why we would reply to spam at all. But obviously #2 is logically prior, so it's fair to treat it first.
 

bobrat

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I really think there is nothing that ODP can do to improve the quality of submissions. The bottom line is that submitters are not reading instructions now matter how clear they are.

Depending on which category I'm working in, I'm finding that the number of sites I actually review and publish compared to the number that I reject as being a duplicate submission, delete as being spam, or move because it was submiited to the wrong category ranges anyway from about 1:3 to 1:75

I have tried changing descriptions on categories to emphasise exactly how sites should be submitted to the category- this description appears on the form when a site is being suggested [the submitier does not have to go hunting for hidden ruls and guidelines]. Clearly no one reads these. I continually get sites submitted to the wrong country, sites submiited in the wrong language, and sites submitted to a top level category, when the description clearly states that this is only to be done under unusual conditions.

Then we have sites in categories divided by letter, it's unbelievable how often the site owner cannot figure out which letter of tha alphabet his company name fits under.

Now that's just talking about where a site is submitted. If we look at titles, again, no one is reading the category desciptions, in one area I get performers websites - the description indicates that the persons name must be the title - every other site in the categroy is like that, yet I will get a site update trying to change the title to something else.

Here is a sample [ the last few days I have not done much editing, typically this list is longer and even more boring] note how few of these are actually reviewed and published -- there is no way I'm going to send an email to everyone telling them what I did with their site

5 Aug
Wrong cat MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
PUBLISHED
PUBLISHED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English MOVED
6 AUg
Adult site being spammed to several cats DELETED
Site not found 2nd time around Deleted - 2 alt sites added to unreviewed
Site not found - Could not find replacement URL DELETED
Site not found - Could not find replacement URL DELETED
Site not found - Still no page display DELETED
PUBLISHED
DELETED
Not English - ADULT MOVED
Not English MOVED
Not English already listed in World DELETED
Not enough content to list DELETED
PUBLISHED
Not English already listed in World DELETED
PUBLISHED
PUBLISHED
Still not found DELETED
Still not found DELETED
Still not found DELETED
7 Aug
Removing duplicates in unreviewed, one left for review DELETED
English link does not work. Listed ok in World DELETED
Under construction and incomplete and wrong cat should delete but MOVED
What on earth are they thinking - Webspace is not spelled with "N" MOVED
Wrong cat MOVED
Wrong cat no content DELETED
generic spam DELETED
Still not found - very old submission DELETED
Still not found - very old submission DELETED
Still not found - very old submission DELETED
Still not found - very old submission redirects DELETED
Not English listed already DELETED
Not English already listed in World DELETED
8 Aug
Waited for 3 weeks for the guy to get his site working - give up DELETED
Wrong cat moved
PUBLISHED
Not English MOVED
PUBLISHED
Dead redirect DELETED
Not English - not Construction and already listed in WorldDELETED
9 Aug
Inappropriate description and site not found DELETED
Wrong cat MOVED
Duplicate submission, already moved DELETED
Still wrong cat regional MOVED
Wrong cat moved
Removing duplicates in unreviewed, one left for review DELETED
SPAM they keep submitiing every couple of week to various cats even though they are already listed DELETED
Not English MOVED
Still not found DELETED
Still not found - old submission DELETED
You have go to be kidding himalayan travel site to Romania DELETED
Wrong cat moved down for later review
 

flicker

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I think it's simpler than that, Hutcheson. I don't think the people who demand to know why we haven't listed their site are thinking about how the ODP works at ALL, either correctly or mistakenly. They're just hoping we will tell them what we didn't like about their site so that they can refute it and we'll reconsider the decision. They're sure they can convince us we're wrong and that THEIR nearly-empty forum is a very special nearly-empty forum because of how excellent the few replies are, THEIR affiliate sales site is a very special affiliate sales site because the web design is so attractive, and so forth. And some of them probably really would prefer to believe that their site was rejected due to some trivial technical problem they weren't aware of rather than entertain the possibility that anyone who viewed their site wouldn't immediately want to link to it.

So I don't think "Will you please give me feedback about why you rejected my site?" means "I would like to improve my site," in most cases; it means "I would like to plead my site's case." (Okay, and sometimes it means "I'm a spammer out trolling," but the difference is usually pretty easy to see.) Most people just genuinely think their own websites are really, really good. If they didn't, they'd probably find something else to do with their time. So it's not surprising that so many people think that if they can just engage an ODP editor in a conversation, they can explain the full goodness of their site and we'll naturally change our minds. Some of them will continue to believe this despite explicit guidelines stating that we don't list their kind of site.

That's my take, anyway. (-:
 

dogbows

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I'm sure you have at least one editor not pulling their own weight.

Editors are volunteers, there is no such thing as pulling their own weight.


How about if a site reviewer did that for dmoz? I mean it's just another search engine. There's thousands of them on the net. What's so special about this one? (I'm hoping you see my point here.

The ODP is not a search engine at all. It is a directory.
 

kctipton

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I agree that the issue is that these guys won't read the guidelines. I don't know why they'd find an email message easier to read than the web pages they ignore, but that's the mindset.
 

nareau

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I think there are a few things going on:
1) As pointed out earlier, the word "volunteer" connotes "helpful," "friendly," and "so passionate about something that you're willing to sacrifice your time for free to make the world a better place." It does not (usually) connote "I do this for free, so bugger off if you don't like how I do it!"

2) Brace yourself--I don't think most people read the submission guidelines!!! :) To be fair, a lot of people are used to a much more lax set of submission criteria. And a lot of people only do this once in their lives. So they don't see the need to read the many pages of detailed guidelines.

3) I myself am used to dealing with online companies that provide an overabundance of feedback. When I buy something online, I get 2 or 3 emails confirming every step of the purchase, and I can view the order status in real-time. Sometimes I can even view photographs of the stuff I order. I can track the shipment across the country, right up until it gets to my door. I suspect that most people don't fully understand that DMOZ is a loosely organized group of hobbyists, not a well-paid bunch of programmers.*

When someone submits their site, and they don't get any response (or they get a minimal "BAH-LEETED!" response), their hopes and feelings all go down the tubes. I think they get angry, because they don't understand, because they didn't read the guidelines.

Finally, a lot of people (including myself) have a hard time understanding why an automated feedback system would be impossible:
1) When a site is submitted, check the database for matches. If there's an exact match, automatically reject it with a friendly message.
2) Whenever an editor touches a site (reviews it, publishes it, rejects it, moves it, etc.), have whatever tool they use shoot an email to the submitter with a generic, "MOVED: WRONG CATEGORY. Do not respond to this email." message.

I'm sure you've all discussed such things, and I'm sure there are reasons why it hasn't been done. But to the average user, it's hard to figure out what those reasons might be.

Nareau

* "loosely organized group of hobbyists, not a well-paid bunch of programmers." I know that sounds insulting, and I apologize. But I think being a DMOZ editor is a lot like having any other hobby. It's something you do in your spare time because you think it's cool or interesting or fun. And I'm sure there *are* many well-paid programmers in the editor pool...just not paid by DMOZ.
 

hutcheson

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No, you didn't sound insulting. Some of what you said is certainly true, and all of it is at least plausible.
 

lissa

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"loosely organized group of hobbyists, not a well-paid bunch of programmers." I know that sounds insulting, and I apologize.

Actually, I think most editors would say that describes us quite well and wouldn't be insulted at all. :)

I think flicker and nareau have both identified part of the problem. People are interested in their own problem (self-centered) and simply presume the ODP is like some many other things online which are highly customer focused. Most people aren't going to take the time to figure the ODP out, and why should we expect them to?

I've been thinking that we should make the submission information extremely simple (with links to more detailed information for the few who are interested) instead of what it is now. Provide a short bulleted list of what to do and what to expect - the same advice we hand out here all the time. Something like:

The ODP is a loosely organized group of volunteer hobbyists, not a business. Our goal is to provide a directory of sites with unique content, not to catalog every URL or help with marketing websites.

Things you can do to help:
- Only suggest sites that provide unique content and comply with ODP guidelines. Read more here.
- Submit sites to the single best category. Read more here.
- Provide a guidelines compliant title and description. Read more here.

What to expect:
- Waiting time for review of a submission can be anywhere from 2 days to 2 years. Read more about why here.
- You won't get any email about your submission status, whether or not it is included or declined. Read more about why here.

If you are interested in this project, please consider becoming a volunteer. Thank you for your suggestion.


Finally, a lot of people (including myself) have a hard time understanding why an automated feedback system would be impossible:

There is plenty of reading on this topic here. It's not impossible, but it simply isn't in line with our goals/purpose and could actually become detrimental.

:)

-Lissa
 

nareau

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lissa said:
Actually, I think most editors would say that describes us quite well and wouldn't be insulted at all. :)
Good. There seems to be a lot of hatin' being thrown around these forums, and I certainly don't want my feedback to be mistaken for such.

- Provide a guidelines compliant title and description. Read more here.
I dunno..."compliant" is an awfully big word. :)

- What to expect:
- Waiting time for review of a submission can be anywhere from 2 days to 2 years. Read more about why here.
Heh, but then you've got people expecting it to be done in 2 years! Seriously, I almost think it would be better to phrase it like:
- Sites are reviewed as the volunteer editor's time permits. Some sites may never be reviewed, others will be done immediately.
In fact, in typing that, I just realized something: The word "submission" seems to be part of the problem. When I submit something, I expect feedback. I wonder how people would react if DMOZ stopped accepting "submissions," and started accepting "suggestions." I know, that wording is already used in a lot of places; but it doesn't seem to be stressed. If people really knew that they were suggesting a site to a category editor, instead of submitting it for some kind of formal review, it would probably change their expectations.

There is plenty of reading on this topic here. It's not impossible, but it simply isn't in line with our goals/purpose and could actually become detrimental.
OK, I can see that. On the other hand...is responding to a bunch of angry webmasters in line with your goals? A lot of what I see on this forum is pretty detrimental; I guess it's just a matter of figuring out which one is worse: incorporate an automated feedback system into the editor tools, or deal with the day-to-day stress of angry webmasters.

As far as why people would be more willing to read an email than a FAQ/guideline: people are lazy. Or, to put it more nicely, people who submit their company's website usually don't have enough free time to devote several hours to finding and reading all of the information they need. The guidelines are pretty extensive, and being able to figure out exactly why your site was rejected when you're totally new to DMOZ can be rather time-consuming. But if you got an email with a 2 line rejection reason, that's a lot easier to digest and understand.

Finally, on something of a tangent: A lot of people hear about DMOZ as a place that will help bring great exposure to their site. They hear that if you can get in DMOZ, you'll start showing up in all the other directories. However, they don't really think about why the other directories use the DMOZ data; namely, because it's the best hand-picked, clean, up-to-date, useful database of its kind. I suspect that almost all of the rejected sites are rejected for the same reason they're submitted: because DMOZ is a very useful directory, and it has to stay that way. I dunno, this may be something of a stretch...but it seems to make some kind of convoluted sense in my brain.

Nareau
 

kctipton

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The "suggestions" suggestion has already been implemented, for some time now.

The top of most public pages has

about dmoz | suggest URL | update listing | report abuse/spam | help
 

nareau

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kctipton said:
The "suggestions" suggestion has already been implemented, for some time now.

The top of most public pages has
Yeah, I went back and re-read the site submission guidelines. It does say "suggest" in a bunch of places, but it also says "submit" (even in the page title). I think that if the distinction were to be useful, it would need to be consistant. It might also help if it there were big red circles around the word, and flashing arrows pointing to it. :)

I think it would also require a pretty fundamental perception shift for everyone involved with DMOZ--submitters (er, suggesters?) and editors alike. But I think it's a really important difference, especially when it comes to bringing the public's expectations in line with DMOZ's function/purpose.

Nareau
 

longcall911

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hutcheson said:
Anybody have a clue as to what sort of -- I hesitate to use the word 'thought' , perhaps 'neuropathological activity' -- leads to this question being asked so often?
Reason #1. It’s all about me. It’s about my site, my livelihood, my ambition, my competitors, and treating me fairly (translation = listing my site).

Reason #2. Read the guidelines? Why would I? I don’t really care about you. See, it’s all about me.

Reason #3. How dare you make me wait and not provide a status report directly to my inbox. Do you know who I am?

Reason #4. There’s a rumor that DMOZ editors are quality-freaks. How 1950-ish. There’s no quality anymore. Who are they kidding. My motto is “throw stuff against the wall – if it doesn’t stick, tell someone to pick it and throw it again”

Reason #5. My friend told me that to get on Google page one, I have to submit to DMOZ and that I should submit every month, then cry and complain until an editor gives in and lists me. Gee, if only DMOZ knew how important I am.

Reason #6. See reason number one.

Hutcheson; IMHO, this type person makes up the majority of Americans (no offense intended, I'm American). Certainly, in the major metro areas, they are the majority. I see it every day. Go ahead, drive into Manhattan or Northern NJ. I see rude, ignorant people in restaurants, at work, at the food store, at the bank, at the movies, even at church. But thank God, I don't have to review thier website submissions. :)
 

hutcheson

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longcall, I agree that there are a lot of people like that. And editors have to be aware of those people everytime we act or speak on behalf of the ODP. But ... that's certainly not everybody. It is not even (IMO) a majority of the site submitters (although those types certainly provide a majority of the submissions -- a subtle but important distinction.)

And I can understand the "all about me" attitude: being human, I have a share in it.

But even as an eight-year-old, I could figure out that there were characteristics I had that weren't unique -- zillions of other people could do the same things, knew just as much, etc. Now you may say I was slow, but ... it's the same logic here. And well, some marketroid creates a insurance affiliate doorway banner farm site, then asks us how many other sites are in front of it in the queue. Well, marketroids are like that -- humanity surgically extracted, if not congenitally absent -- and they're "all about three things, me, myself, and I. Oh, four things, I forgot 'mine.'") And maybe we can expect that from them.

But we get this question from some people who don't obviously fit any of the obvious molds -- people with sites we're happy to hear about and list (if not so happy that we drop everything else in our life to do it immediately.) Now, I don't mind telling the marketroids that they are postules on the body politick and abyssal trenches in the world economy. There's no educating them in the fundamental courtesies of human existance anyway. But ... there are people out there capable of human sympathies and acts of generosity -- who can look at an ODP editor without thinking "who's he cheating to get something out of all that work?" We know there are, because some of our most enthusiastic new editors come from among them. Those are the people we care about communicating with. And in this matter our communication seems to be ineffective.
 

longcall911

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hutcheson said:
But even as an eight-year-old, I could figure out that there were characteristics I had that weren't unique.
But things are different today. For a good many years, I’ve heard politically correct parents telling their kids how ‘special’ they are. While that can be a good thing, it’s only half the equation. The other half is “in fact, we are all special in our own way. So, look for that special person in everyone you meet.” Without the second half, kids become selfish, egocentric, and insensitive to others. (Then they submit their websites.) Mine are all adults now, and I’m proud to say they learned that lesson well.

hutcheson said:
But we get this question from some people who don't obviously fit any of the obvious molds . . . there are people out there capable of human sympathies and acts of generosity . . .Those are the people we care about communicating with. And in this matter our communication seems to be ineffective.
Capable of generosity, yes. Practitioners? Unfortunately, I think it’s a small percentage. I’ve participated in this board for a few months now. I’ve seen the same issues day in and day out. The people change, but the issues remain. That tells me that by and large, people don’t understand the ODP.

I don’t claim to have a full understanding, but I think I have a level of appreciation. That appreciation however, is only recently acquired. Allow me to tell my story, in an attempt to bring some clarity. About 7 years ago, I submitted my little Rangers Fan Club site. Within a month or so, it was reviewed and listed. A year or so later, I built a site for the small company I worked for. I submitted, and a couple of months later, it was listed.

Since then, I’ve built a number of small family sites for my family and friends. So, there was no reason to submit to ODP. About three months ago, I completed a site that has become the basis for my new business. Fine, I submitted. At the time, I didn’t know the ODP story at all. Like many other people, it was just another directory to me. So, it’s edited by humans…. okay….. whatever. <-- key point.

After a month or so, I checked the directory, and found no listing. I began to question myself. Did I submit? I usually keep track of that stuff, and found no record. So, I resubmitted. Yes, I read the guidelines (this time). The standard stuff… no mirror sites, don’t submit every page on your site….. don’t try to fool us by submitting once with ‘www’ and once without…. yeah, yeah… right….uh hu… I’m not doing any of that…. and clicked submit.

A moth later, I check the directory. Nothing. So now, I’m thinking there’s a problem. I start digging around. Finally, I stumbled across the ‘Procedure after your site is submitted' statement. It’s buried. I know it is part of the submission instructions, but I don’t need or want to know the “follow up procedure” when I’m submitting. I need to find it a month later, when I figure I’ve got a problem. Start at http://www.dmoz.org/ and count the clicks before you find the procedure.

Once I found the forum, I began to discover that DMOZ is not just a directory. It’s a place…. a whole different place. Wow, there’s this sort of secret society of editors in here, amazing. It feels like they are on the other side of this wall, though. I can’t see them. And before I try to talk to any, I have to read more rules . . . yikes. This doesn’t feel very friendly. And I see that in this world, there are lots of complainers. And they’re mostly being told they didn’t ask their question correctly. And many are being told to ‘get on with their life’.

But then, when I looked closer, I found that the secret society was really made up a lot of good, generous people who are trying very hard to contribute to an ideal they believe in. But, commercialization has polluted the process. I used to love Christmas. Now, I’d rather not celebrate. The Christmas spirit is to too hard to find amongst the commercials.

That's the end of my story, and here’s my suggestion. Make the submission process warm and friendly. Split the submission form into 3 or 4 parts. I enter my name. Next screen, is ‘Hi Tom'. On the screen is a picture. . . . a picture of people, DMOZ people. Hey…. They’re saying hi to me. :) Tell me who these people are (we’re all volunteers who are building the best directory we can). I enter my suggested URL. Next screen. Thanks for your suggestion. As editors, we go find sites ourselves. But we value your suggestion. We may or may not use it. If we don’t, please don’t take offense. We are trained to look for things that you would not see. Please help us with a title and description for your suggested site. Next screen. Thanks, we invite you to register with our forum now. This is where you will go to check on your submission status later. But, please wait at least one month before checking. {print this page}

This approach will not stop the spam, of course. But, it will tell the good generous people with who you do want to communicate, that you’re not the ‘Priory of Sion'. To me, the fact that you editors have to deal with public abuse (do editors get to fill out an abuse form?) is a real injustice. I think it is the reason I stay involved here. There must be a better way. There just must be.
 

spectregunner

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8,768
I sometimes think the entire issue is cultural -- internet cultural.

In the early days of the Internet, people took pride in learning how things worked, and in sharing that information. Usenet, IRC and text browsing were king, and while people were always willing to help one another, there was an unwritten rule that you did your homework before asking for help.

At some point in the 15 years, the Internet got "dumbed down" and became a consumer plaything. Need to design a webpage, use Frontpage. Need to communicate, use instant messenger (and avoid all punctuation and conventional spelling). We won't even go into the whole AOL "me too!" thing, because it irritates my colon.

So people throw up a website, and they find out about this place, and demand an instant answer -- and if we have the unmitigated gall to suggest that they actually read the instructions, they have a hissy fit. They demand that we tell them exactly why we rejected their site, because they need to know how to game us. They demand we establish a FIFO system, because the don't understand, or want to understand, the beehive editing model. They demand the right to spam us, because Spam and instant answers are the lingua franca of the 21st Century.

Sometimes I think (but only for a moment) that we would all be better off it we didn't have to be unfailingly polite to submitters. I wonder what would happen if we gave responses along the lines of:

-- Your site is an abomination that does no one any good, and it will never be listed.

-- Your site is worthless, you are a major spammer, both you and your site are banned for eternity.

-- Give it a rest! We are not going to list your site and that is that.

-- We have reached a concensus opinion that you are a jerk. You are banned from this forum.

-- Maybe you have better start figuring out how you are going to explain to your boss that you are such a world class putz that you have managed to get your company website banned.

##

I know, I know, we aren't allowed to do that -- but I'm sure that many of us have "thought that." I think that this is why I am in such awe of hutcheson. I'm a writer and pretty good with words, but he is a gold medal olympian at telling someone to get stuffed, without ever actually telling them to get stuffed, or without them realizing they have been told to get stuffed.
 

longcall911

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2004
Messages
106
Too funny. I happen to agree with it all. I was in awe the first time I saw a gif87 on the internet (long about 1990 I think).

Frequently, friends ask me for help with their computer problems. I go over, and the desktop is covered from corner to corner with icons. Every crap free demo program ever written lives on his desktop. I scan and find 15,000 adware files. Last scandisk.... never. Last defrag.... never. System tray....(oh excuse me, it's now a notification area) icons on top of icons. Gee, can't figure out why my machine is running so slow.

Not to mention that their anti-virus subscription ran out 2 years ago, and they have to close the big red warning window every time their machine reboots. Hey... don't you see this warning? Yeah.... it's a real pain. What's up with that anyway?

And what's sadder is that they really don't care to know. All they want is AOL and AIM. Then they upgrade to broadband and still pay AOL. Why? For email. "Hey Jim, you get a POP3 account with OptimumOnline. Or, I'll give you one, I got a gazillion of 'em." "Nah, I'll stick with this." It's mind boggling. And almost all of my friends are the same way.

I have one friend, a builder who bought a domain name. He put it on his stationary, biz cards, even painted it on his trucks. Enter the name in your browser. You know what you get? 404 page not found. It’s been that way for 18 months. I told him I’d host a single page for him with at least the company info onit, until he had someone build him a site. "I’ll even walk you through a DNS change. All you need is your Verasign account name / password". That was a year ago.

I’ve come to the conclusion that there are those who care, and those who don’t. And I know that it’s tough being someone who cares, when surrounded by people who just don’t.
 
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