www.10w40.com

Every single page of the site contains at least 8 affiliate links (4 on the side, 1 on top, 1 at the bottom, and 2 or more within the list of links). Much of the "content" that is left is just links to threads at other forums (not articles). Yes, there is other stuff there but you're making it difficult for the reviewing editor(s) to actually find any of it (note: I am not one of them).

BTW All of the autotruck.net links on your site are bad, since the domain is up for sale.

www.10w40.com - Constructive Criticism

OK - so submitting to ODP isn't supposed to be a design review - but I'm going to try to make lemonade here...

Since it appears that the reviewer felt that the percentage of indexed sites and article reviews that also paid referral fees was too high (40 out of 300 or so), I undertook the challenge to cut it down. Looking at traffic stats for the site (it's been running for about 18 months now) I saw that only 7 or 8 of the referral links were really being used by visitors - they didn't place much value on the other 35 or so. So I cut them. I didn't cut them to appease the editor, I cut them because users didn't value them. I also added red "sponsored site" text next to the referral links ala the monster portals and search engines. It will be interesting to study how users respond to the changes over the next few months. (Half the reason for creating 10w40 was just to see what kinds of problems people come to the web hoping to solve)

I don't know if the above will fit within the editor's definition of acceptable. 200 hand selected and written reviews to specific auto repair solutions. 8 advertisers. Where advertisers also offer solutions, I've added the words" "sponsored site" to the review. I'm biting my tongue, as I would not have viewed 10w40.com as an overly "referral" oriented site before, but the site is marginally better for having culled some dead wood.

Re: www.10w40.com - Constructive Criticism

I agree that the articles are particularly good content, but the overall feeling I get is that this is an affiliate-driven site with some good content thrown in. I wish it were the other way around.

I don't want to get into a spitting match here. But let's look at these issues one at a time.

Claim: 8 Affiliate links on each page.
Yup - you're right.
They're advertising.
Here's my view on advertising and affiliate links.
http://www.resource-zone.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=general&Number=9851&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1
You might not like 10w40's design, but it's a popular ad placement design, used by many of the largest information-oriented web sites.

Claim: Some of the links are to forums.
Yup, you're right. It's easy to link to web sites (no offense to the work that ODP editors do), but finding a specific answer to diagnosing a car problem is hard. I traverse bulletin boards, industry trade group sites, and even other auto repair sites, looking for the articles that normal people would NEVER find using Google. I guess I could steal those other authors' works and lay claim to it myself, but that would be wrong - instead I write up reviews, categorize the answer (whether it is in a forum or a stand-alone article) and send the person to that site. It's a pain - deep links change (thanks for pointing out another site that I have to update my database for), and whole sites disappear. But for a person with a specific problem they are looking to solve, using 10w40's reviews is a whole lot easier than skimming through 42 pages of altavista search results. And if you think that writing site reviews and linking to other sites has no value to users, then - oh that's too obvious.

Yes, there is more there. The discussion areas are fairly active and I have 4 regular moderators.

I've been trying to play by the rules here, not rip anyone off, place my cards on the table. ODP could, and should, be the ethical alternative to Yahoo. I know there are still editors and Metas who have this vision. But based on the posts I've seen in these forums over the past 6 months, there is a strong body of members who enjoy the power more than they respect the responsibility they have been given.

kctipton:
I wanted to let you know that I don't have any ill feelings toward your comments regarding this issue. Your first analysis was based on your experience with people trying to sneak affiliate sites in, and caused me to re-think the value of some of the links - and I ended up removing a number of them.

The additional comments by motsa did get my dander up because they are so indicative of the mindset that anything with link tracking is bad, even when it is simply advertising / and-or / that sites should exist without advertising altogether.

From your posts kctipton, I would not put you in the same category as motsa, and therefore not the subject of my ire.

Your concern about listing 10w40 seems more focused on the ethics of mixing objective and sponsored content. This is something I can get my hands around and have a level-headed conversation about. At 10w40 there are about 200 (now a little less since some dead links were pointed out) reviews of individual pages with auto solutions, plus about 45 links to online stores (in a different branch), 7 or so of which generate income. Even before, when there were 40 income generating reviews, there was still a high degree of editorial decision making going on. There are at least 150 automotive related affiliate programs I could have linked to, but I felt that only 40 or so had quality products and a reputation that I would recommend. I've since lowered that to less than 10.

To my mind, this is a reasonable ratio, particularly since they are not intermixed with the solutions links. If you disagree, that is your perogative as an editor. I feel differently and would think that most people "on the outside" would side with me, but you're the one that makes the decision.

However, if 10w40 can't cut it as a valid content site, it is really a statement about directory sites entirely - and a full discourse in one of the other forums is necessary. Maybe ODP should disallow all directory sites as a matter of policy. Of course, if directory sites (reviews of other sites or web pages) have no inherent value, then it really calls into question why ODP editors should spend so much time helping build one anyway. Strange irony to the whole issue.

You can make me the subject of your ire all you like. I don't deserve it, though, because I was just trying to offer you an idea of why an editor may choose not to add your site. I was not and am not the editor reviewing your site for inclusion.

"However, if 10w40 can't cut it as a valid content site, it is really a statement about directory sites entirely..."

~ It is. This is a fact Yahoo, MSN, Altavista, etc. have all been facing for a while, and you can see it in their steadily increasing number of premium services. Money can be made in advertising, but there isn't much left after the affiliate administrator takes their cut. Premium services or referrrals to inside sales (e.g. your own product or service) are what brings in a profit.

www.10w40.com - No Advertising

kctipton,

I'm sure you'd like to close the door on this one, but let me give it one more try.

As everyone here should know, one of the most important measures for inclusion is not whether or not the site has advertising (either affiliate or other method) but whether or not the content is unique and has value.

As an exercise for myself, I've duplicated the site without ads. Any place where an advertisement or sponsored review used to exist has been marked with a placeholder. Note, although I feel the reviews of all sites have value, even sponsored sites, I have removed ALL the content for sponsored reviews as well (with a placeholder marking the former content).

http://10w40.com/noads/default.asp

The main content is on the following three pages:
http://10w40.com/noads/pages/fix_diag.asp (109 reviews on 10 pages)
http://10w40.com/noads/pages/fix_maint.asp (15 reviews on 2 pages)
http://10w40.com/noads/pages/fix_repair.asp (78 reviews on 8 pages)

There are also 3 pages with links to stores:
http://10w40.com/noads/pages/buy_part.asp (40 reviews on 4 pages)
http://10w40.com/noads/pages/buy_service.asp (9 reviews)
http://10w40.com/noads/pages/buy_tool.asp (10 reviews)

And finally, a good sized discussion area (hosted by everyone.net, so I can't make it appear without ads)
http://10w40.community.everyone.net/commun_v3/scripts/directory.pl

So there it is in all its naked glory.

Why am I going to such great lengths? I don't need the extra traffic, the site has been around for quite a while and reaches enough people to make me feel that my invested time has been worth the effort.

It's a principle thing. (Oh boy, not another idiot with a soapbox! <img src="/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

If the content of all these reviews has no value, then it seems likely that ODP should really review its policy on whether directory sites can be included at all, and advise editors to consider the new policy as they review their assigned areas in the future.

Re: www.10w40.com - No Advertising

That is an awfully good way of showing your content - the naked glory. I wish sites really looked like that.

Re: www.10w40.com - No Advertising

...no value...

Click to expand...

I never said that. I said the site seemed overwhelmed with affiliate-tagged stuff.

I hope you realize I could have rejected without posting in this forum thread again, but I thought your content had merit and I wanted to give you a chance.

Re: www.10w40.com - No Advertising

kctipton,

Thanks for the reply. I consider the matter now closed - 10w40's directory-style content does not meet the ODP definition of significant, unique content.
I'm not sure what this means for all the other directory-style sites that ODP has / will review in the future, but I consider the answer definitive for 10w40.com

TAC

Re: www.10w40.com - No Advertising

&gt;I'm not sure what this means for all the other directory-style sites that ODP has / will review in the future

I think it's fair to assume:

1) As the ODP itself becomes a more comprehensive directory, it becomes harder and harder to create a "directory" site with content that is both useful and unique. The bar is rising.

2) The minimum directory site from 6 months ago would not get in today. The minimum directory site from 18 months ago will probably get removed next time it's looked at.

3) A forward-looking editor, when reviewing directory sites, will look for evidence of significant content in some form that the ODP couldn't match even by spidering its sites: basically, this means information that is valuable (to the SURFER, not the advertiser!) AND useful (to the SURFER, not the advertiser!) as well as being unavailable either in the the ODP directory or elsewhere on the web.

4) A forward-looking webmaster should prepare a site to be reviewed according to the ODP standards six months in the future (assuming a continued rise in standards), and should prominently feature the UNIQUE content of the site.

I, personally, would not count on being able to get ANY directory site listed. Building a significant directory is (or at least so they say: I wouldn't know) a lot of work, and a lot of continued work. Reviewing one is almost as much work.

You can submit one, but don't expect to get any sympathy from appeals to three-year-old listings. And don't whine about "fair". Equity has a temporal aspect. If you had submitted the site three years ago, it would have been evaluated like the others evaluated then.