A personal experience

P

Phil

/images/icons/smile.gif It's not a problem for me, kujanomiko. If you managed to read my lengthy post that started this thread, you'll remember that I didn't weant to be an editor as such. I merely wanted to help and that was the way to do it. There won't be a next time.

Phil.
 
K

kujanomiko

/images/icons/laugh.gif Not everyone gets accepted on the first try, either. I tried a few times, got rejected, left for awhile, then applied to a different cat and was accepted. And I got editing permissions for the other cat a few weeks later.

Why don't you try another category, Phil, maybe it was just the size or placement of the other.
 
P

Phil

Thank you for your comments, kujanomiko. The whole point of this thread is that, if rejections are because of the "size or placement" or other 'technical' reasons then, considering the amount of time that is often spent preparing applications, it is very discourteous not to say so in the space provided in the standard email. Because of it, DMOZ must lose quite a number of potentially decent editors.
 

Hi Phil,

I would agree with you in that it would be nice to get a personalized reason why you were rejected. In my case, this did happen.

Upon my first application, I too spent a good period of time to find new, quality sites for my application. I checked my spelling and sent it off. The next day I got a reply stating my app had been rejected. In the additional comments area was a nice note urging me to apply again. The category I had applied for was too large for a new editor.

So that is what I did. I found a small category in my interest, and applied again. Once again I was careful with my application. The next day I was accepted.

So while your experience was not a pleasant one, I can tell you, it is not happening in every case. I am sorry this experience has "soured" you on ODP. I hope you might change your mind in the future. /images/icons/smile.gif

SoapStuff
ODP Editor Arts/Crafts/Soaps
 
P

Phil

What a nice post, soapstuff. Thank you. Your experience is how it ought to be all the time except (as I have learned in this thread) on those occassions when the person is really not wanted and stating the reason would allow him/her to circumvent it. Of course, I might be one of those. I can't imagine why, but it's possible.
 

lissa

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
918
Phil - Thanks for your post. Two comments about the process in general.

The fact that an application is rejected quickly indicates that there was something "obvious" wrong (spelling, grammar, category applied for etc.) To try to keep the queue manageable, the metas look for the obvious deletes first, which unfortunately are 60-80% of applications received. I agree that it would be better to always include a reason with the rejection, and hopefully we can improve this, perhaps with a check box form or something.

It has been suggested in other threads that ODP should be less stringent in accepting new editors if we need help so badly. What we really need is highly motivated, quality help, not just a body off the street who is going to toss a few poorly described URLs in a cat and then time-out after they lose interest. A side effect of the application process is that it weeds out people who are not highly motivated to join. Someone who is persistent enough to figure out how to get accepted, even in the face of several rejections, will probably be motivated to learn how to be a good editor and stick with the project. I'm not saying that this is the intention of the system, just a side-effect. Yes, editors get accepted who aren't motivated to stay (many never even login once and a lot only do a few edits and then time out after 3 mos.) Yes, we probably lose potentially good editors who are put-off by a rejection with no explanation. But most of the editors that are active and have moved up in responsibility have "I was rejected" stories, and how they eventually worked out what was wrong and improved their editing.

I knew nothing about ODP besides reading the guidelines before I hit the application button. My first application was rejected without explanation and I felt a little miffed. After all, I had very nicely explained why I had applied to a higher level category and how I was going to reorganize what was there. However, being rejected told me a couple things: first, the person reviewing has no idea who I really am; second, they really meant what they said in the guidelines; third, apparently I was not going to just be given free reign in a small section of the directory. I applied again to a lower level category, was accepted, and then discovered I had actually joined a community of people. Not quite what I thought I was signing up for, but better! I straightened out what I started with, learned a lot of how editors do business, proposed my reorg and eventually did what I had originally proposed in my application. The process was very different than I thought it would be looking in from the outside.

What I am being very long-winded in saying is that being an ODP editor is more than just listing URLs and writing titles and descriptions, it is working with a community of people, absorbing the common goals, learning about the tools and past organizational decisions and constantly improving yourself. The application process is just the first filter in fitting a new person into the editing community, and most people have to figure out how to pass through that gate by themselves.

Hope this slightly different perspective on the process is interesting!
 
P

Phil

Hi Lissa. Thank you for your post and, yes, it was interesting. I'd already come to realize that the ODP is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. It is in bad shape because it has so few active editors and such a massive backlog (the lowest figure I've read is over half a million) but if it lowers its editor approval standards for the sake of gaining more editors, it will result in a much poorer product. My answer to this dilema is....I have no answer - except for the measure that I have been talking about in this thread, which is to encourage those who look like they could be good but who are rejected for 'technical' reasons.

For instance, you were a potentially good editor when you first applied but nobody thought to tell you that you'd applied too 'high'. You could easily have gone away feeling "slightly miffed" and the ODP would have been the loser. It doesn't make sense. I'm assuming that your first application was ok in terms of sites, descriptions and such.

However, there's been a developement. Just as an experiment I resubmitted my second application but at the opposite end of the day from the previous time. I was convinced that there was nothing wrong with the application and I was curious to see what a different reviewer would make of it. It was accepted. I know that the easy response is to say that different people see things in different ways but I have to conclude that the person who looked at it the first time around could not have seen much wrong at all, and that my points in this thread have been justified.

I now have the problem of deciding what to do about it. When I started this process, I was motivated to help with the backlog for two reasons. [1] because many thousands of perfectly good sites found it hard to impossible to get listed and [2] as an internet user, I'd prefer to see all that is available when I do a search. The more relevant sites that are listed, the better. My problems are:- [1] as we all know, I'd seriously gone off the idea of helping and [2] I've found that that there isn't a backlog at all in the tiny category that I chose (to avoid applying too high). The topic area is so small that there is no chance of doing sufficient edits to merit moving to where I can do more good. I know that from the difficulty I had in finding the sites to suggest on the application form.

Phil.
 

Welcome, Phil! Be sure to post in the New editor forum at ODP and say hi.

There's an easy answer to your question about what to do with "your" category: find good sites to add. There are plenty of people who can help you with this.

Also, check my thread called "What Editors Do All Day" to get an idea of what else the category may need. There's a LOT more to do than just reviewing submitted sites!

And don't brood over the acceptance process. Lots of folks have gotten in on their third try. All the metas are in here reading posts: maybe your comments inspired one of them to look more closely at the applications - who knows?

Anyway, log in, knock around, and meet people. I'll bet you find something to ignite your enthusiasm again!
 

jordancpeterson

Business
Joined
Mar 27, 2002
Messages
118
Wait for 24 hours and I'll get you that e-mail as I promised you Phil. It’ll have a ton of tips so stand by. Oh and welcome aboard! /images/icons/smile.gif
 

donaldb

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
5,146
Welcome Phil /images/icons/smile.gif

As a first step after reading the guidelines, and some of the forum threads about writing good descriptions, you'll be able to go through that category and tidy up the descriptions that are currently there. Some of those descriptions in that cat need some tidying badly /images/icons/smile.gif

don
 

Welcome Phil!

You seem well spoken, and knowledgable, and I am sure you will be an asset to ODP! /images/icons/smile.gif

My category is small as well. Any "backlog" which was there when I came on board was quickly taken care of as most were not in the right cat anyway. So I've been diligently trying to search out sites with good content to add. I've noticed that since I've been editor, there have been no submissions. So getting the edits required to become editor of more challenging categories may take me awhile. I'm anxious to do more, but I figure this gives me all the time I need to learn the ins and outs of editing. It seems this is a good system which doesn't allow a person take on too much, too fast. I'm sure you will be able to find quality sites to add, and you might just be addicted to editing in no time! /images/icons/smile.gif

Good Luck to you!

SoapStuff
ODP Editor
Arts/Crafts/Soaps
 

lissa

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
918
Phil - Welcome aboard!
>>I now have the problem of deciding what to do about it.<<
I realize that your interest waned, however, please consider extending your experiment for long enough to work through the initial process of being a new editor until you get accepted for a 2nd category. A few reasons: you can report back here to interested folk what it is like as you start up, you will get a pretty good flavor of what works well and what we're trying to improve internally, you WILL have the satisfaction of having helped out (every little bit counts), and you will get a chance to see if this is actually interesting to you (of course, we're hoping you'll quickly become addicted!)

The editor community is very helpful, however, if a new editor doesn't speak up or catch the attention of someone, they may not get assistance they need. So anyone else reading this - if you join, find your way to the new editor forum and speak up! At first when I started, I dove right into editing (because you do need to try things out) but once I found the forums, I spent a LOT of time reading for a couple weeks, just to try to absorb a lot of stuff pertinent to my job.

The problem of starting in a really small category is easily resolved. After the editor has done everything to improve a small category (all descriptions up to guidelines and new sources for sites exhausted), but still doesn't have enough edits/experience to apply directly for the next category, they can work in their own Bookmarks category on whatever interests them - either creating a brand new category or listing sites for the next category they want to apply to. This will both build up their experience and show the metas their ability for that next target.

For the record, my second application was the same as the first, just to a lower category. I agree that the process could be improved, and I'm sure the information from this forum is going back into discussions internally. There are differences among the metas in editing/reviewing styles. Some of this is due to personal preferences (individual style), some to differences in the problems seen in areas they cover (some areas are more prone to abusers, so those metas may be more strict in general when reviewing any application), some to changes in the community over the years (a method developed 2 years ago may be out-of-date now or new features may not be adopted), and sometimes people just make mistakes. While I think there will always be differences, this forum really gives us the opportunity to discover problems that we really didn't know existed or didn't realize were as great as they are.

So now I'll let you go and start editing!
 
P

Phil

Although this is posted as a reply to Lissa, it is a reply to everyone. Thank you for the encouragements to stay. The last submission was just an experiment, done out of curiosity, and I really didn't expect or want to be in this situation. I said in an earlier post that my animosity was on the wane and that getting it off my chest helped. Anyway, I've decided to follow it through and see what I can do. Apart from anything else, the experiment caused one reviewer to do an amount of work and it's not in my nature to waste someone else's efforts. I'd be a bit hypocritcal if I did that, wouldn't I?

Lissa, I'm going to do as you suggest and take time getting to know the whole thing - then I'll apply for the staff job /images/icons/smile.gif

Phil.
 

jordancpeterson

Business
Joined
Mar 27, 2002
Messages
118
lissa makes some very good points, especially the one about continuing the experiment! /images/icons/laugh.gif

I just thought about something Phil. You could be making history by being the first person to keep a running dialog of what is happening to your editing career here in the public forums. Keep it up! /images/icons/smile.gif

Let’s have a vote to see what everyone else thinks about Phil continuing his free trial membership! /images/icons/wink.gif

<FORM METHOD=POST ACTION="http://resource-zone.com/dopoll.php"><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="pollname" VALUE="1017871762jordancpeterson">
<p>Should Phil stay as an editor?
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="1">Yes, without a doubt!
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="2">Yes, give it a go!
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="3">Yes, you’ll make it!
<INPUT TYPE=RADIO NAME=option VALUE="4">Sure, give it all you got!
<INPUT TYPE=Submit NAME=Submit VALUE="Submit vote" class="buttons"></form>

My personal feeling about why you were rejected the second time is that a Meta hit the wrong button. Of course I don’t know but that is what I’m going to assume.

For all of you other editor wannabes keep trying! Don’t give up. The above is a prefect example of persistence. If you have questions don’t hastate to ask them here.
 
P

Phil

Shouldn't there be a "No! Throw the b****r out!" option, Jordan?

/images/icons/smile.gif
 

apeuro

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
1,424
Since you're now an editor Phil, I've changed your privs and profile to reflect that.

Enjoy the inner sanctum. /images/icons/wink.gif
 

Now why would we want to do that?? You've only just joined. /images/icons/wink.gif
 

donaldb

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2002
Messages
5,146
once I found the forums, I spent a LOT of time reading for a couple weeks, just to try to absorb a lot of stuff pertinent to my job

This comment by lissa made me chuckle /images/icons/smile.gif I think I'm spending more time reading than I am editing. I start reading one thread, and leads to something else interesting, and then another, and before you know it you can't remember what you were looking for in the first place. I can't wait to hear Phil's reaction when he starts going through all of the reading material in the fora etc. You could spend the rest of your life catching up on past threads /images/icons/smile.gif

OK, OK! I'm going to go edit for a while.
 
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