Directory Attitude - An Open Letter to DMOZ!

charlesleo

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May 3, 2006
Messages
152
I stated nepotism (not to be taken literally) because I can see where someone doing the bare minimum would list their own site and perhaps a friends or aquaintace 4 months later. One submission every 4 months - kinda fishy.

You clearly dont understand SEO.
I don't understand it as much as I like to. Earlier this month I made front page of CGArchitect sending my website from obscurity to top 100 of Google. One single link/newsfeed did this within over 8 million results. My site is mainly images and thumbnails so I know body text didn't cause this. After two weeks (when the newsfeed changed), my site is nowhere to be found again. So please don't downplay the importance of a single link on certain websites that hold a higher position within Google - ODP being a major one of them.

I also think I have a pretty good grasp on rankings - one site I founded is the number one babysitting resource on the Internet. #1 is not easy to get in this category. You usually don't get there without having some knowledge of how systems (in particular SEOs) operate.

Dovecotes for some reason is liked by Google, despite not having a link from the ODP.
But your site is still listed somewhere in the ODP - thereby indirectly catapulting it.
 

old_crone

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Jul 19, 2002
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526
I stated nepotism (not to be taken literally) because I can see where someone doing the bare minimum would list their own site and perhaps a friends or aquaintace 4 months later. One submission every 4 months - kinda fishy.
Why do you see that as kinda fishy? If the sites the editor added are appropriate, what could possibly be fishy about that?
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
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Mar 23, 2002
Messages
19,136
Charles, don't think about the four-month rule as a way of trying to force people to do a certain amount of work. That is not its purpose, and that is not its effect.

Think of it as like, say, a webmail account, which is automatically enabled after being inactive for several months.

It may be that some editor somewhere may be manipulating the rule to maintain his account "almost inactive."

And what's the result? With thousands of edits occurring daily, this manipulative editor is performing a fraction of a thousandth of a percent of what gets done.

And if we doubled the "requirement", he'd be doing a whole thousandth of a percent of the work, in order to maintain his position. And if his first fraction of a thousandth of a percent of the work was nepotistic, the rest of that thousanth of a percent might be nepotistic also.

So, your proposed rule change would seek out the proportion of the editors that are (according to your own theory) acting nepotistically, and INCREASE the influence of their work? Granted, increase it insignificantly.

After looking at these facts (all of which are publicly known) I'm puzzled as to (1) why someone would make such a suggestion, when its effect was so obviously harmful, and (2) why someone would think such an insignificant effect, harmful or helpful, MATTERED or not. Is it really THAT hard to think of ways to harm the directory?
 

kenmoody

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Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
4
Wow...

After having read through these conversations for a few days, I am amazed at the venom directed towards the editors and mods at ODP. Boiled down, ODP is a site. They are putting together a list. They can do what they will with the list. Clearly they, as a group, are acting in a sincere manner and are doing the best they can with what is clearly a very big project.

But even if they were not acting in a forthright manner (and clearly they are) - so what? It's their site. The mere fact that getting listed here affects SEO, which is true to varying degrees, does not somehow entitle the universe to immediate satisfaction on any and every issue. The editors do what they can, as best they can. It's their site. If you don't like how it works, go play somewhere else.

Getting an ODP listing is not a magic key to improved SEO. It is one peice to a much larger puzzle. If it bugs you so much, go hound some other high PageRank site for a link. Good luck on that...
 

jeanmanco

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Aug 13, 2003
Messages
1,926
But your site is still listed somewhere in the ODP - thereby indirectly catapulting it.
I see that you hate to give up on a theory! :D But honestly now, does this make sense? If a simple link from the ODP to the base url of my site could 'catapult' the dovecotes page up Google's SERPs all by itself, why wouldn't a direct link to the specific page on Bristol Bridge work wonders in Google for that page?

There is an inescapable logic here. There is nothing special about a link from the ODP. It is just a link.
 

vintagecorset

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Jun 1, 2006
Messages
14
Thank you - I am so pleased that I read this entire thread. It answered a lot of questions I had regarding ODP and the length of time it takes for a site to be reviewed. Now I can see that the ODP's mission is to maintain a directory of quality websites utilizing volunteer editors who care greatly about the project. I like the fact that the editors do not only consider submissions but look for quality URLs on their own. I started my site January 1 but I'm seeing steady growth without being listed in DMOZ and will consider it icing on the cake when/if I'm listed. I submitted as directed but I keep working to improve my site and add content. Now I shall wait with great patience, more respect and a sense of understanding what ODP is all about!
 

mostly cloudy

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Mar 17, 2006
Messages
26
kenmoody said:
If it bugs you so much, go hound some other high PageRank site for a link. Good luck on that...

I like that. Im amazed I havent seen that posted on this forum before!

If anyone knows how to get a link on w3c's homepage, please let me know!
 

pvgool

kEditall/kCatmv
Curlie Meta
Joined
Oct 8, 2002
Messages
10,093
mostly cloudy said:
If anyone knows how to get a link on w3c's homepage, please let me know!
Why go for such a site.
Many DMOZ categories have only a PR of 4 to 6. A lot have even lower PR.
There are enormous amounts of sites with comparable PR. And they will have exactly the same effect on your site as DMOZ when you are linked from there.
 

kenmoody

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May 31, 2006
Messages
4
pvgool said:
Why go for such a site.
Many DMOZ categories have only a PR of 4 to 6. A lot have even lower PR.
There are enormous amounts of sites with comparable PR. And they will have exactly the same effect on your site as DMOZ when you are linked from there.

My point exactly. Yes, DMOZ does have some decent to high PageRanked pages. But it's not the only such critter out there. Go find some industry-related sites which are equally well ranked and drum up some links there.

Besides, the whole google effect is not what this project is all about. I may be a new poster here, but I've been using (heh) for years. Appreciate it for what it is, and stop with the self-serving, 'ODP link is the key to success' nonsense. Please.
 

charlesleo

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May 3, 2006
Messages
152
Anyways - it's a moot point. I'll agree to respectfully disagree and leave it at that. No one truly knows the effects - it's all supposition we can agree upon.

I am amazed at the venom directed towards the editors and mods at ODP
And where have I been 'venomous' towards anyone? Please give me some examples. If anything, I'm guilty of arguing and trying to make what seemed like helpful suggestions. I don't see how that's venomous.

If it bugs you so much, go hound some other high PageRank site for a link.
I am not telling anyone to go anywhere. Nor have I complained - pointed out some things and tried to make arguments 10:1. But complaining? I don't think you've read enough to form a valid opinion. And I have seen other people say 'if you don't like it, go somewhere else.' Again, that's pretty rude.

But it's not the only such critter out there. Go find some industry-related sites which are equally well ranked and drum up some links there.
Agreed. I've already hit all the major sites.

Just to clarify, a link to my site wasn't the only reason why I applied to become an editor. I've stated that before. But that was a good part of the reason. I would like to genuinely help people that have been stuck in this so-called 'queue' for extraodinary lengths of time and let the public have better access to useful information. If you want, you can fault me for being honest.
 

mostly cloudy

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Mar 17, 2006
Messages
26
pvgool said:
Why go for such a site.
Many DMOZ categories have only a PR of 4 to 6. A lot have even lower PR.
There are enormous amounts of sites with comparable PR. And they will have exactly the same effect on your site as DMOZ when you are linked from there.

I think you misunderstood the intended meaning of the post. I dont actually want to know how to get a link on the w3c's homepage.
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
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Mar 23, 2002
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19,136
>I would like to genuinely help people that have been stuck in this so-called 'queue'[*] for extraodinary lengths of time

Understandable. But here's the thing. Bank tellers are supposed to be helpful. But don't try to get a job as a bank teller because you want to help poor people with their finances! Because the bank would be likely to think you were abusing the facilities they entrusted to you. It's the same way at the ODP. It was set up to help people find good sites: volunteers are trusted to want to help surfers. Having a PERSONAL priority of helping webmasters (or, more usually, caring nothing for webmasters unless they happen also to be active in search engine optimization activities) introduces a conflict of interest that many people can't handle. And with or without the conflict, editors are entrusted with tools that they are expected to be using in ways focussed on finding the unique content on the net.

[Note *: We, of course, try to be careful NOT to call it a queue for the reason that it isn't one. It isn't really a pool. It is merely one of many visible manifestations of the REAL unreviewed pool. And ... editors OUGHT to care just as much, maybe more, about the not-so-visible portions of the real unreviewed pool.]
 

charlesleo

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May 3, 2006
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152
...you forgot a part:

and let the public have better access to useful information

I guess the keyword would be 'useful.' Obviously, if the site is non-related or completely out of line - it's not suitable for a posting. But I'm sure there's plenty of people waiting three years plus that have very handy/informational websites that would be good candidates for review.
 

hutcheson

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Waiting? I'm sure there are plenty of people that haven't waited for anything, but have been busy collecting and publishing useful information -- that have websites that have been good candidates for review for more than three years.

The editors' perspective here is to ignore the date of the suggestion-event. Because the suggestion-event does not change reality. If the suggested site was already listable, it was ALREADY waiting for review!--nothing changed because of the submittal. And if the site WASN'T already listable, then the only thing that changed was the suggestor became a joint participant in a distributed spamming operation. (The submittal policy says what sites to suggest, and incomplete sites are explicitly NOT on that list.)

It is not site-suggestors that the editors are supposed to be serving, let alone obeying. ALL webmasters, whether or not they engage in site suggestion, may have sites that are eligible for review. That's important to remember.

Suggestions -- are supposed to be a help to editors. When editors think they might actually be useful, they use them--otherwise not.

And ... this is a matter where editors -- even with recognized mutual goals and shared methods -- don't have a right to dictate to each other. But we're human, we're careless, and, fact is, we spend too much time on inefficient review of suggested websites, because it's easy. So it's extremely important, for the good of the surfer, for the integrity of the directory, that we do as much as possible to keep reminding each other to place LESS emphasis on suggested sites, and MORE emphasis on other techniques.

If you have any suggestions as to how we can DE-emphasize site suggestions, without cutting off whatever minor usefulness they serve, ... we'd be interested in hearing them.
 

charlesleo

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May 3, 2006
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152
As an outsider not having known the process (and hence asking questions here and learning more of the process) - it has to be made clear that:

"Sites are included mostly based on editorial/personal interests and not on site suggestions - please note that an overwhelming majority of site suggestions are very rarely used as an aid to the listing process. Less popular categories (such as the business categories) can take up to several years and sometimes even longer in order to be reviewed. Also note that the ODP does not operate on a queue basis."

And if you subscribe to the following, then also mention that:

"Contrary to many search engine suggestions, site inclusion into the ODP has very minimal impact on search engine rankings. Many top listed sites on the Internet are listed here after having been found on search engines - having given rise to many misconceptions. Other sites carry significantly higher PageRank and will serve your needs significantly better. As a reminder, the ODP is a completely independant volunteer organization that does not provision any search engine. This is not the ODP's goal or responsibilty."

...Something like that should de-emphasize suggestions.
 

Sachti

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Jan 21, 2003
Messages
386
I don't think that this helps, because if anyone would read any remarks shown on the proposal form, proposed site descriptions would be better ;)
 

hutcheson

Curlie Meta
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The two statements in paragraph one (two different statements) does not accurately represent what the editors have said.

(1) It is false that sites are included based on editorial interest. Sites are included based on editorial JUDGMENT, which is emphatically not the same thing. If we review a site we're not interested in (and active editors have reviewed thousands or hundreds of thousands of sites that they are not personally interested in) we still list it if it's listable. And no editor has said otherwise.

(2) Editors choose priorities based on many things. It is a misrepresentation to suggest that it's "personal interest" to the exclusion of any other factor. Personal interest is only one factor. It is and ought to be an important factor -- how better could we tell what surfers in general are interested in, except by using the large sample of surfers who are editors? But no factor, up to and including pure random shut-your-eyes-and-pick-a-category, can be eliminated. The more factors, the more robust the process, and if we're going to tell people the TRUTH about the ODP, that is an important aspect.

(3) It is a blatant falsehood to say that sites ARE NOT added based on site suggestions, when hundreds of thousands of sites HAVE been added based on site suggestions. Likewise, it is not true that site suggestions are "rarely" acted on -- there are certainly thousands of suggestions acted on daily. (Of course, some of those actions are "do not list". Maybe we ought to just add something in the ODP submittal policy that says "no site is guaranteed a listing". Oh ... it's already there.)

(3) "bla bla bla ... up to several years and even longer ... bla bla bla ... not on a queue basis" -- is neither more precise nor more concise than "review times cannot be predicted." Why not just say that? "review times cannot be predicted?" And then when people assume "this site will be reviewed in less than six months", or "this site has been waiting for 2 years, must have been reviewed already," then anyone who can read can just whack the speculator with a clue stick and say, "bad submitter! no predictions from you!"

But, assuming you corrected the misstatements, you'd still be dealing with a fundamental misapprehension. You've just introduced a statement proposed as an official ODP pronunciamento. But what in all that statement could or should stand as official?

What's official is what's published: mission, social contract, editor guidelines, submittal policy. We mostly haven't been talking about official policies. We mostly don't need to -- they're published on the official site. What we've expressed is our individual and collective experience in and around the ODP. Look at your paragraph again, skipping the false parts:

(1) The official ODP position is that suggestions will be looked at. (In practice, of course, this means "kept until looked at.") That's all. There is no official position on how many of your fellow site suggestors are spammers, and why should there be? And indeed, EXPERIENCE says the proportion is different in different categories anyway. In the same way, there can be no official position on what percentage of sites come from different sources -- there is no way of tracking that information anyway. What we've been saying represents our own individual editing experience, and the fact that multiple editors have said similar things suggests that the experience is widespread if not universal. But that does not make it official!

(2) "The ODP" can not possibly have any official statement about "how it doesn't operate." There may be editors who DO "operate on a queue basis" -- I've heard a few claim to do that. Most of us agree that's not ideal. Certainly, the more experience one has, the better one knows WHY it's not ideal.

(3) The ODP can have no official statement on what "popularity" means -- certainly there is no way of tracking it, so there can be no official position on whether popular categories or unpopular ones get updated more often. Most intervals between updates are very irregular, so "often" can have only a probabilistic definition. And ... it just isn't worth trying to explain probability to most people. (Look how popular lotteries are!)

Again, the ODP can't make official statements about its use in search engines. Only the search engines know for sure; only they can make official statements. Some editors (hi, jean!) take an interest in that for their own reasons, and are happy to share what they know. That's just another kind of personal experience.

Again, it's not the place of the ODP to officially solve the problem of how SERP perp misconceptions arise. There are, I think, many sources. A sufficiently illogical person doesn't need much of a start anyway, and internet marketing, um, doesn't attract the Dr. Spocks of the universe. But that's just one opinion, and it's really not worth speculating over. You just tell people the truth, and see how many of them can get over their presuppositions.

The ODP has no official position on relative page rank of sites, and why should it pontificate on the subject? Anyone who is interested in page rank can just LOOK at Google. (Page rank wasn't a concept when the ODP started. It's not a concept relevant to the ODP anyway. (Why not put in a statement that the ODP doesn't eradicate Malaria or feed starving polar bears? At some point, you have to figure people who want to know what the ODP does will either ask or read the official statement of what the ODP does. You'll find no mention of Malaria, or polar bears, or page rank in it. And that should be enough.

It has not always been true that the ODP doesn't provision any search engine: I don't know if it's true now. (How many search engines are there?) But there is nothing in the ODP policies that forbid such a thing. Ergo, it wouldn't be appropriate to claim it doesn't happen.

I think this illustrates how complex the subject is, and how absolutely certain to be misunderstood if you try to apply binary "true-false" logic to a stochastic process with "multiple heterogenous servers with adaptive optimization" and "tendancies" and "probabilities." You just can't say "does" or "does not" happen this way, without being false and misleading. And "tendancies" have no predictive value for single events.

If we're going to say something, here's the bumper sticker version of the secret inner life of the ODP:

It's complex. Don't try to predict it, you can't. Don't try to manipulate it, it will backfire painfully. If it's what you want, take it and welcome! If not, thanks for visiting, tell your friends.
 

disklabs

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Apr 21, 2005
Messages
216
lmocr said:
Assuming your motives are pure


This is exactly what our friend is on about. Rudeness from the Editors.

It doesnt matter if you are volunteers or not, if the manner of the person isnt up to the job, they shouldnt be in a public facing position. It looks bad on the directory. It looks unprofessional.
 

shadow575

kEditall/kCatmv
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Jul 26, 2004
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lmocr said:
The number of editors on the front page of www.dmoz.org is the total number accepted throughout the years, for current numbers please read the monthly reports.

The suggestions you've made have been discussed (almost) to death. Please search the forums and you'll find the discussions.

Editors are required to make at least one relevant edit every 4 months - the time frame allows editors to take a short break from editing (real life comes first) without having to go through the reinstatement process.

Assuming your motives are pure, you could always volunteer for a small category in a noncompetitive area to help out. Eventually, after you've learned from the inside, you could apply for the category where your site might be listed.

Taken in its entire context, what lmocr said wasn't being rude. She has offered up some very good suggestions and done so in what I see as a sincere response.
Now snipping out 5 words from an entire post in a vane attempt to make someone sound rude or discredit them, that is an entirely different story. :mad:
 

disklabs

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Apr 21, 2005
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hutcheson said:
(3) "bla bla bla ... up to several years and even longer ... bla bla bla ... not on a queue basis" -- is neither more precise nor more concise than "review times cannot be predicted." Why not just say that? "review times cannot be predicted?" And then when people assume "this site will be reviewed in less than six months", or "this site has been waiting for 2 years, must have been reviewed already," then anyone who can read can just whack the speculator with a clue stick and say, "bad submitter! no predictions from you!".

Typical response from Ed's and Meta's. It sounds that this subject has come up time and time again. It also sounds like Charles is quite switched on, so 'I' would lake that as he understands what he reads. If this is the case, then your messages are NOT getting across.... Why not then, take on board some of these comments instead of shooting them down?




hutcheson said:
What's official is what's published: mission, social contract, editor guidelines, submittal policy. We mostly haven't been talking about official policies. We mostly don't need to -- they're published on the official site.

Again, these official guidelines are not working. If they did, 90+% of these posts would not be here?


hutcheson said:
(1) there can be no official position on what percentage of sites come from different sources -- there is no way of tracking that information anyway.

Why not? It would be good data for all, and simple to impliment?

hutcheson said:
Again, the ODP can't make official statements about its use in search engines. Only the search engines know for sure; only they can make official statements. Some editors (hi, jean!) take an interest in that for their own reasons, and are happy to share what they know. That's just another kind of personal experience.
Why cant it state which search engines use its data? here is a starter link to help: http://www.bruceclay.com/searchenginerelationshipchart.htm

hutcheson said:
It's complex. Don't try to predict it, you can't. Don't try to manipulate it, it will backfire painfully. If it's what you want, take it and welcome! If not, thanks for visiting, tell your friends.

Sounds like 'if you dont like it.... go somewhere else'. Now where have we heard that one before?

Hutcheson, you are right in your comments about complicated, but just throwing in big words doesnt mean that you are right in your responses.

The official statements are too complex, perhaps a bullet point version would be better? or perhap an abreviated version with click downs to the full versions? Would it be a good idea of putting examples of what are good and bad suggestions, using real websites, (they could be subdomains of the DMOZ)?

The final thing is that people are bullied on this forum, we all know that. The bullying goes on by the editors and moderators. They use their 'power', and make comments like 'thanks for visiting, tell your friends' but that doesnt mean its right.

Now that lot is food for thought..
 
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