DMOZ is Dead...Long Live the Open Directory Movement!

>The entire review structure of your directory, the slow movement of your system, they way you handle submissions from people, lack of status checks, the fact that it takes about a year before your site is reviewed, the fact that many categories don't have editors, the fact that many categories aren't reviewed in years and so on.

I don't know any secret related to any of those things that any editors have tried to keep.

The review structure is, and has always been, based on editor interest and editorial judgment of what's important. Not on where the most suggestions are.

Suggestions are handled like, um, suggestions. We keep them until they might be useful on what we're working on (or until we're sure they won't be useful). We don't know, so can't make it secret OR public, exactly when things will happen. But the fact of "no knowledge about future events" is hardly a secret.

Not providing a status check service: we don't have to ADMIT it, we ANNOUNCED it. You heard it from us first, for crying out loud! We told you why we don't do it also, in the same announcement.

That "many categories don't have editors" isn't true in any useful sense. Every category has dozens of people who can edit there: you simply can't tell anything about the presence or absense of "named editors." it's just flat dishonest to suggest otherwise.

That some categories go for long periods of time without changes is true, and (since the "last date changed" is on each category page!) we couldn't keep it a secret from literate people if we tried. I can't imagine any editor trying. I have personally, on multiple occasions, led people through the calculations to approximate the minimum possible AVERAGE time between updates in a category, and it's over six months. So what would that say about the ACTUAL, MAXIMUM time? It's surely over a year, as anyone who has followed my calculations could see. If the other editors were (in defiance of reality) TRYING to keep that secret, they should have told me!

But "takes about a year" -- as a general rule, that's just flat wrong. The real fact is, sometimes it happens before the suggestion (negative time), and sometimes it takes multiple years: neither of those can be honestly described as "about a year"! There's no way to predict, and that's no secret either.

In the absense of editing functionality, we'll keep saying the same things, over and over, in different words, until you understand them -- or until we're convinced you're incapable or unwilling to learn.

I've reviewed and listed site suggestions that had been submitted the day before and other site suggestions that had been there a year.

Why? Because they happened to be in the small area of 10,000 site suggestions that I was working in that day, it's as simple as that.

It seems that honest, impartial people who are willing to spend their spare time as volunteer editors working for free, are a little hard to come by. The people who are not allowed to become editors are the ones who we suspect are going to have self serving interests in mind.

You can hardly blame us for not wanting a wolf in with the sheep, can you? and there are many, many wolves out there.

And, they are usually the ones who complain the loudest, .

Skeletje said:

Ow yes I offered to help you guys out a bit, ... it has been months since people were able to submit a site. ... You keep saying the same things to people over and over again, almost like robots. ... Charge 20$ to review a site, hire a decent programmer, get your system together, hire some reviewers and all these useless debates will go away and if you do it right you will get your directory back on track.

Click to expand...

Well thank you for pointing out some dead links. We have tools for that, but tools are not infallible, which is why "Humans Do It Better".

Did you offer to help by applying to be an editor? That is the most help someone can be, so if you can see a category that you feel you could build and improve, by all means submit an application once the technical problems are fixed. If you choose not to volunteer your time, that is fine, but criticising those of us who do is then a little contradictory.

Unfortunately we have to keep saying the same things over and over because a great many people simply don't read the public documentation or listen to what they are told. Whether this is because it does not fit their own view, or whether it is just laziness, I don't know. But if people keep making the same mistaken assumptions, we like to help them understand. Sometimes they refuse to shift from their own preconceived notions, and while that is unfortunate for them, there's nothing at all we can do about that.

Finally, your suggestion that ODP becomes a paid listing service is so completely at odds with its social contract that I can only assume you have not read that far.

makrhod said:

Well thank you for pointing out some dead links. We have tools for that, but tools are not infallible, which is why "Humans Do It Better".

Did you offer to help by applying to be an editor? That is the most help someone can be, so if you can see a category that you feel you could build and improve, by all means submit an application once the technical problems are fixed. If you choose not to volunteer your time, that is fine, but criticising those of us who do is then a little contradictory.

Unfortunately we have to keep saying the same things over and over because a great many people simply don't read the public documentation or listen to what they are told. Whether this is because it does not fit their own view, or whether it is just laziness, I don't know. But if people keep making the same mistaken assumptions, we like to help them understand. Sometimes they refuse to shift from their own preconceived notions, and while that is unfortunate for them, there's nothing at all we can do about that.

Finally, your suggestion that ODP becomes a paid listing service is so completely at odds with its social contract that I can only assume you have not read that far.

Click to expand...

Yes I did submit an application in the past, it got denied because of a possible conflict of interest I could have, relating the category I submitted my application for. I have several sites listed in the DMOZ directory, are these listings good for traffic? Well no, I can count the monthly traffic from DMOZ on my two hands. Is it good for an increase in PR? Well yes, it helps and can boost PR by 1 point. 1 point isn't a lot and there are tons of other ways to increase PR by more than 1 point.

I applied to become an editor for a particular category because:

1. There isn't a current editor for the category
2. The category is in my field of interest, I would have to spend time on it but in return it would improve my knowledge for the particular field I'm working in.
3. I noticed that the category content is a bit outdated, internet technology moves fast and there are many sites out there that would fit the category rather nicely.
4. I know how much time and effort people (including myself) are spending on their sites, they submit them to a category without an editor and there is no way their site will get reviewed anytime in the near future. How are these people supposed to compete in a fair way?

Sure I have a conflict of interest, my main gain from devoting my time to edit a category is that I would stay up to date and get to see certain new sites that I would miss out on when I look for them through other sources.

I won't go into all the other stuff that has been written above, and at this point your system isn't working and I assume this will stay this way for the next few mon... well years so there isn't any point going into further debate about this.

You could also solve your editor problem this way:

1. Hire every single editor that applies, 500 or 1000 new editors.
2. Collect 50 of your best old school award winning editors and let them inspect and guide the new ones, so every senior editor manages 10 to 15 newbies. You people like to talk and discuss so use that energy towards guiding the newbies.
3. Remove all the nasty newbies, the corrupt ones, the lazy ones, the idiots and you will be left with 400 to 600 new editors.

Now you probably will say: "We are already doing this with new editors" but well you aren't doing it enough are you?

So sure I'm willing to edit a category. Would I do this only to get my own site in? Well no because it's not worth the trouble, a DMOZ link is a good link but it sure won't do impressive things SEO wise. I know this since I have several sites listed in the directory. I also wouldn't use my "editor skills" to keep out competitors, since I know a thing or two about SEO I know that there is more benefit in having many high quality sites listed on the same page instead of 2 or 3 good sites that are surrounded by 20 low quality pages and a person looking for my site's content isn't going to use DMOZ, perhaps 1 in 100.000 will do this. As you can see I have my motivations but non of them would harm my ojectivity.

So yes markhrod I'm willing to edit and help to improve a category, I do have knowlegde and information to gain from it, I'm honest about this. I'm also not desperate so I don't care if you want my help as an editor or not. I don't need to do this for the pagerank or the traffic or to keep the competition out.

And, we don't have to be editors, Skeletje, we can resign at any moment and use our time to benefit ourselves and our families, instead of others.

No one forces us to do what we do, and as people, we don't deserve the kind of abuse we get from some of the public, .

4. I know how much time and effort people (including myself) are spending on their sites, they submit them to a category without an editor and there is no way their site will get reviewed anytime in the near future.

Click to expand...

I just want to address this one little point I would estimate that I am not listed in about 99.9999999% of the categories where I edit - and of those categories - I would say probably 95% do not have anybody's name listed at the bottom.

Now - if you were to suggest a site at at non-Regional category where I'm listed, it would probably wait longer than other sites in the lower categories where I'm not listed. Why? Because I can be pretty sure that any site suggested to the non-Regional categories where I'm listed are probably suggested to the wrong category.

I did submit an application in the past, it got denied because of a possible conflict of interest I could have, relating the category I submitted my application for

Click to expand...

Just owning a site which could be listed in the category you apply to join in is very unlikely to be the sole reason an application gets rejected. The reviewing meta editor presumably found one or more other issues with your application...

chaos127 said:

Just owning a site which could be listed in the category you apply to join in is very unlikely to be the sole reason an application gets rejected. The reviewing meta editor presumably found one or more other issues with your application...

Click to expand...

Ok perhaps he pressed the wrong button, that could also be the case or perhaps for the fact the category in question was adult related and the percentage of deletion is much higher compared to the percentage of acceptance in that category.

crowbar said:

And, we don't have to be editors, Skeletje, we can resign at any moment and use our time to benefit ourselves and our families, instead of others.

No one forces us to do what we do, and as people, we don't deserve the kind of abuse we get from some of the public, .

Click to expand...

You know you can expect something like that when the stakes go up, blaim google. If you guys only wish to maintain your hobby write a friendly letter to google telling them you are fed up with the pressure from the general public and you wish google stops using your data. Google has tons of money and resources to set up their own directory within a short period of time.

There won't be a single person bothering you anymore about their submission status, review time etc... You could also start a massive spamming campaign to make DMOZ's pagerank drop like a stone, that would also help.

You have something people want, some people are polite while others are rude so you know you can expect such behaviour.

Yes nobody forces you to do what you do and yes you don't get paid so you are a volunteer. Now think about all those people in the real world that work as a volunteer in a food shelter etc... Don't you think they meet rude people who call them names or whatever?

lmocr said:

I just want to address this one little point I would estimate that I am not listed in about 99.9999999% of the categories where I edit - and of those categories - I would say probably 95% do not have anybody's name listed at the bottom.

Click to expand...

Ok so you only have a single website but it's listed right.

lmocr said:

Now - if you were to suggest a site at at non-Regional category where I'm listed, it would probably wait longer than other sites in the lower categories where I'm not listed. Why? Because I can be pretty sure that any site suggested to the non-Regional categories where I'm listed are probably suggested to the wrong category.

Click to expand...

Could be, but this doesn't take away the fact that 1000's of people keep bothering you day in day out asking when you will look at their site that they submitted 2 years ago. All those explanations are fine but you keep talking and talking instead of dealing with the issues.

Sure the idea behind DMOZ is fine, sure it's a quality directory, sure most editors are doing a good job in their own time when they feel like it. The point with DMOZ is that it still looks like it did in 1995, the internet evolved but DMOZ didn't.

All those explanations are fine but you keep talking and talking instead of dealing with the issues.

Click to expand...

Difference of perspective here. Since the "issues" are that many people don't realise what the ODP is (and isn't), the only way to deal with them is by talking and talking and trying to make people understand. Sometimes, we succeed, sometimes we don't. But information is the only way to deal with the issue of misunderstanding.

Yes nobody forces you to do what you do and yes you don't get paid so you are a volunteer. Now think about all those people in the real world that work as a volunteer in a food shelter etc... Don't you think they meet rude people who call them names or whatever?

Click to expand...

If you were going to a food shelter for a meal, and you started criticizing the way they operated and demanding the type of food you'd like to be served, how far do you think you'd get?

Would you listen to an explanation of why and how they operate the way they do, and why they serve the meals they do, or would you keep on complaining and arguing, and telling them they shouldn't do it at all?

That's what you're doing here. You've been offered something for free, and instead of appreciating it, you cut it down. That's called being an ingrate.

nea said:

Difference of perspective here. Since the "issues" are that many people don't realise what the ODP is (and isn't), the only way to deal with them is by talking and talking and trying to make people understand. Sometimes, we succeed, sometimes we don't. But information is the only way to deal with the issue of misunderstanding.

Click to expand...

Just to make it clear: Neither I nor any other ODP editor claims that there aren't things we could do better. There are issues, but they are not to do with webmasters being annoyed because we don't work to their schedule.

I think we are getting some confusion here about the way DMOZ is set up and the use of the word 'volunteer'. We use the word 'volunteer' to mean that we donate what time we can spare to the project, not in the sense that we undertake to provide a service.

Hence the analogy to soup kitchens falls down. A person volunteering to run a soup kitchen undertakes to provide soup at pre-determined times to 'down-and-outs' and not turning up at a particular time is a failure to meet what one has promised to do.

A better analogy would be my mother working for the Red Cross offering home-help for out-patients. She is a volunteer and decides how many visits she can do each week, which can drop to zero in winter due to bad weather. My mother doesn't regard herself as an 'angel of mercy' or anything like that as the Red Cross offers her a hobby that she does for her own enjoyment.

Though my mother has only volunteered in that role, because she has done so, she gets approached to do other things - such as going to Iraq to help the British troops in Basra. (Luckily for all concerned, she declined ). The Red Cross is castigated by the local Social Services (and others) for not having enough volunteers to fulfill their obligations.

At 78, my mother is thinking of giving it up as she finds cycling through the city a bit much. Instead she plans on volunteering to do hospital visits instead. Though as a result the Red Cross, Social Services and Tony Blair have a harder job, I don't think they have a reason to complain. The Red Cross co-ordinate the volunteers to provide whatever service they can with the volunteers available. If Social Services have come to rely on the Red Cross to do some of their work for them to relieve their budget, that is their problem.

regards

crowbar said:

If you were going to a food shelter for a meal, and you started criticizing the way they operated and demanding the type of food you'd like to be served, how far do you think you'd get?

Would you listen to an explanation of why and how they operate the way they do, and why they serve the meals they do, or would you keep on complaining and arguing, and telling them they shouldn't do it at all?

That's what you're doing here. You've been offered something for free, and instead of appreciating it, you cut it down. That's called being an ingrate.

Click to expand...

What type of people do you think they get to see overthere? Go and take a look, you will see rude people who even curse to the people who are helping out there as a volunteer. That's my point, even when you are a volunteer don't expect that everybody will be thankful for what you are doing, expect that there will be people who will still be rude towards you.

Even the rude complainers still get food at the food shelters or soup kitchens you know.

That's just how it is, don't be so amazed by it.

even when you are a volunteer don't expect that everybody will be thankful for what you are doing, expect that there will be people who will still be rude towards you.

Click to expand...

What a strange comment. I have not seen anyone saying that we expect thanks for our work on the directory, which is something that we do for our own interest and pleasure.

All I have seen is several of us spending time and effort answering your questions and addressing your misunderstandings, and for that yes I suppose a little gratitude would have been polite. But not expected, no. We are too familiar with the attitude of people who prefer to hang to their mistaken beliefs about what they want the ODP to provide rather than listen or read about what the ODP actually offers.

It's rather sad, really. Analogous to the poor deluded soul who keeps yelling imprecations at the soup kitchen workers because they keep explaining that what they offer is soup and bread.

Eric-the-Bun said:

I think we are getting some confusion here about the way DMOZ is set up and the use of the word 'volunteer'. We use the word 'volunteer' to mean that we donate what time we can spare to the project, not in the sense that we undertake to provide a service.

Hence the analogy to soup kitchens falls down. A person volunteering to run a soup kitchen undertakes to provide soup at pre-determined times to 'down-and-outs' and not turning up at a particular time is a failure to meet what one has promised to do.

A better analogy would be my mother working for the Red Cross offering home-help for out-patients. She is a volunteer and decides how many visits she can do each week, which can drop to zero in winter due to bad weather. My mother doesn't regard herself as an 'angel of mercy' or anything like that as the Red Cross offers her a hobby that she does for her own enjoyment.

Though my mother has only volunteered in that role, because she has done so, she gets approached to do other things - such as going to Iraq to help the British troops in Basra. (Luckily for all concerned, she declined ). The Red Cross is castigated by the local Social Services (and others) for not having enough volunteers to fulfill their obligations.

At 78, my mother is thinking of giving it up as she finds cycling through the city a bit much. Instead she plans on volunteering to do hospital visits instead. Though as a result the Red Cross, Social Services and Tony Blair have a harder job, I don't think they have a reason to complain. The Red Cross co-ordinate the volunteers to provide whatever service they can with the volunteers available. If Social Services have come to rely on the Red Cross to do some of their work for them to relieve their budget, that is their problem.

regards

Click to expand...

Those red cross people are nasty, by asking to a 78 year old woman for her to go to Iraq.


Hence the analogy to soup kitchens falls down. A person volunteering to run a soup kitchen undertakes to provide soup at pre-determined times to 'down-and-outs' and not turning up at a particular time is a failure to meet what one has promised to do.

Yes true, good comparison you are making there -------->

Now back to DMOZ, people submit their sites, they fill in the forms and try to do everything correctly, by doing this they expect that somebody will look at their page within a reasonable amount of time (2 weeks to a month).
Now the editor who's also a volunteer agreed to edit and review webpages in his/her free time when they feel like it.
What happens here is that the DMOZ editor doesn't show up in the "soup kitchen" because they don't look at the sites people submitted.

That's why people get mad, you don't deliver the soup, well eventually you will in a year or two or more.

I would expect that of them and it wouldn't really bother me much, considering a lot of them have mental problems, . I would expect a little more from someone like yourself though.

I don't normally come to this or any outside forums or blogs, I'm usually busy editing, but, it's been very educational to listen to some of these rants.

I can't say that I completely disagree with some of points that have been made, and, it isn't going to change the way I personally review site suggestions, but, it has made me more aware of your opinions, and I don't think that's a bad thing, .

Blowing off some steam is probably good for you, Skeletje, but, I'm afraid there's a big divide between what you want and what we can give you, it just doesn't work that way in the Directory.

Actually, we do a lot more than just review site suggestions, there are many tasks to perform, and we're not required to do anything we don't want to. No, you're wrong, we show up, but one person can only feed just so many of the 10,000 people, and only one at a time.

That's what you're not understanding. There are only so many volunteers, and many, many site suggestions to deal with.

by doing this they expect that somebody will look at their page within a reasonable amount of time (2 weeks to a month).

Click to expand...

OK, that's unquestionably an issue. But the problem is, it's an inherently human problem. People who don't think it's reasonable THEY should ever be expected to give anyone else anything, seem to think THEY have the right to tell everyone ELSE what gift to give them.

I don't think we're going to solve the problem of egotistical, rude, unreasonable people.

The best thing to do is ignore them.

Skeletje said:

Now back to DMOZ, people submit their sites, they fill in the forms and try to do everything correctly, by doing this they expect that somebody will look at their page within a reasonable amount of time (2 weeks to a month).

Click to expand...

They would only expect that if the failed to read the instructions that they acknowledged reading prior to suggesting their site.

Skeletje said:

Now the editor who's also a volunteer agreed to edit and review webpages in his/her free time when they feel like it.
What happens here is that the DMOZ editor doesn't show up in the "soup kitchen" because they don't look at the sites people submitted.
That's why people get mad, you don't deliver the soup, well eventually you will in a year or two or more.

Click to expand...

I hate analogies. People get mad because we don't deliver their brand of soup. I don't know of many editors (any?) who signed on as volunteers to edit and review webpages. I for one signed up to build categories that were important to me by finding sites to index that provided useful information for someone (like me) seeking it. Which resources I choose to use in finding the sites is entirely up to me and really depends on the category I am working on each day.