DMOZ is Dead...Long Live the Open Directory Movement!

crowbar · Dec 14, 2006

We don't know anything for sure, danky, but this editor is feeling very optimistic,

.

hutcheson · Dec 14, 2006

>Didn't I read something they need to login and review their category at least once every 3 months?

How did you all miss the really big howler in this?

Nobody has a "their category". Nobody. Nobody at all. Ever.

And there is no requirement, EVER, for ANY editor to "review" ANY category.

And any editor could spend a lifetime reviewing any category, without looking at a single suggested site, and that could very well be an acceptable approach to doing very good, very valuable, very much appreciated, editing work.

What editors do is review SITES (not necessarily categories or suggestions) and make changes (additions, moves, edits, removals) to LISTINGS.
In other words, if a webmaster is trying to control the editor's priorities through site suggestions, there's no handle in all of this, and there's no place on the suitcase to connect the handle, and there's no place in the suitcase to place the controller.

Skeletje · Dec 14, 2006

pvgool said:
Two main errors in your thinking
1) even if the current amount of editors would review all suggested sites within a specified timeframe we still could use more good editors
2) reviewing websites is not a task the editors are doing, we are building the directory and if we want we can use the pool of suggested sites to help us fullfill this task

BTW how many times do we have to tell you the same thing. When do you understand that your opinion of how DMOZ should act is not the way it is acting and not how it is willing to act. Continuing not listening and telling us that we should do what you want us to do will not change the way we will do our "work" within DMOZ.

PVGOOL I already had a very long debate with you in the past. You are one of those editors who will keep saying everything is fine and DMOZ runs perfectly and it's the people who don't understand how the directory works and ..............................

There aren't any errors in my thinking PVGOOL

To reply to point 1 you make: How does this relate in any way to what I wrote. It's just a general remark you make, how do you even dare to call this an error in my thinking?

To reply to point 2: Yes yes you don't review websites, oops my mistake.

You are the perfect example of the type of editor that makes people angry. At least almost everybody that replied to my previous postings in this thread admits there are a few flaws with the directory and certain things could be better. But you PVGOOL you always keep defending and point the finger towards the submitters instead of being honest about things.

When you would work in the soup kitchen PVGOOL you would tell people they can't have soup because they didn't bring a cup with them and it's only your task to pour the soup in the cup and you can't do anything about the fact they didn't bring a cup.

I already had a long discussion with you and won't get into a new one.

Skeletje · Dec 14, 2006

HEY PVGOOL LOOK WHAT YOUR BUDDY WROTE BELOW

hutcheson said:
What editors do is review SITES (not necessarily categories or suggestions) and make changes (additions, moves, edits, removals) to LISTINGS.

That's why I don't want to go into debate with you anymore .

Skeletje · Dec 14, 2006

hutcheson said:
>Didn't I read something they need to login and review their category at least once every 3 months?

How did you all miss the really big howler in this?

Nobody has a "their category". Nobody. Nobody at all. Ever.

And there is no requirement, EVER, for ANY editor to "review" ANY category.

And any editor could spend a lifetime reviewing any category, without looking at a single suggested site, and that could very well be an acceptable approach to doing very good, very valuable, very much appreciated, editing work.

What editors do is review SITES (not necessarily categories or suggestions) and make changes (additions, moves, edits, removals) to LISTINGS.
In other words, if a webmaster is trying to control the editor's priorities through site suggestions, there's no handle in all of this, and there's no place on the suitcase to connect the handle, and there's no place in the suitcase to place the controller.

When you fill out the form to become an editor it states you need to login to the category you applied for every 3 or 4 months (right now you can't see this because the application section is down)

Perhaps he doesnt need to review the submitted sites but he needs to review the category. Check for links that are down etc...

OK OK nobody has their own category (aside that their nickname is listed at the bottom of the page that the editor for this category is xxx) and at any time any other editor can come in and make changes as he/she thinks are necessary.

And also it would be a good thing if the editor actually did login at least every 3 months and looked at the sites people went to the trouble of submitting.

hutcheson · Dec 14, 2006

When you fill out the form to become an editor it states you need to login to the category you applied for every 3 or 4 months.

No. You. Don't.

You CAN'T "log in to a category."

The ACTUAL requirement is "do some edit" -- logging in is implied, but going to any particular category is not required.

And looking at suggestions is NEVER required.

There may be times when it's a good idea -- that's why suggestions are still accepted. And there are certainly times when there are much better things for an editor to do. But there are NO times when it's required. In fact, the exact opposite is true: an editor always has the absolute explicit right to refuse to review ANY site -- for personal reasons, which need not be told to any other person. And an editor has an OBLIGATION to NOT review a site, if he thinks he can't be fair with it, for whatever reason.

motsa · Dec 14, 2006

When you fill out the form to become an editor it states you need to login to the category you applied for every 3 or 4 months (right now you can't see this because the application section is down)

I'd almost guarantee that you're misreading whatever is there but, if it truly is worded in a way that makes it seem as though that is what it means, then it needs to be rewritten. An editor doesn't log into a category, they log into their account, and they must make an edit somewhere (not in a specific category) at least once every 4 months in order to keep their account from timing out for inactivity.

Perhaps he doesnt need to review the submitted sites but he needs to review the category. Check for links that are down etc...

Nope. Such requirements don't exist. Sure, most editors of small categories do that but it isn't a hard-and-fast requirement that we make of them.

And also it would be a good thing if the editor actually did login at least every 3 months and looked at the sites people went to the trouble of submitting.

It might be a good thing from a submitter's point of view but from our point of view, it is the net improvement in the category that is the important thing, not where the editor trawls for listable sites.

dogbows · Dec 14, 2006

Because of a specific project that I worked on to help myself and newbie editors have an easier task in one particular area, I once made in excess of 2000 edits without editing in any of the categories that I had permission to edit. The first few months as an editor, I worked in categories that never received a single suggestion. There are many ways editors can volunteer their time without ever looking at suggested sites.

crowbar · Dec 14, 2006

hutcheson is correct, Skeletje. If an editor doesn't do any kind of edit, which includes a lot of different tasks, not just reviewing or adding a site, within a 4 month period, then they may have their editing privledges removed. That's called timing out.

But, even then, an editor can request to be reinstated as an editor, and most likely it will be granted, as long as he's done a good job as an editor and hasn't broken any of the guidelines we follow.

I've actually resigned, because of real life issues, and requested and been granted a reinstatement as editor.

None of us OWN the category or catagories we edit in, we just have permission to edit in them, as do many other editors with the same or higher permissions,

.

So, in a 4 month period, I am only required to do one edit, to remain an editor.

I have a real life business working 6 days a week, and a family to take care of, I only edit in my spare time because I like to, and I feel it's a worthy project to do for the world community of web surfers.

Our editors are from all over the world, and we ask each other for help and advice, so our decisions are made together, as a group. All of us are volunteers, none of us get paid, and we enjoy the freedom of working as much or as little as we feel we have time to.

Editor pvgool, is a better editor and more knowledgable than I am, please treat him with the respect he deserves.

pvgool · Dec 14, 2006

Skeletje said:
PVGOOL I already had a very long debate with you in the past. You are one of those editors who will keep saying everything is fine and DMOZ runs perfectly and it's the people who don't understand how the directory works and ..............................

I never said there are no things to improve in DMOZ. There are many as all editors know. But the current process of suggesting and reviewing sites is not one of those problems. Not giving status checks is also not a problem.

XmWebdesign · Dec 14, 2006

Hope you get it working

I'm new to the forums, but I have been submitting my sites to DMOZ for quite some time and I totally agree that it is very unfortunate and just plain stinks that the site has been down so long. What are you gonna do? I understand the burdens with reconstructing databases and if you all are doing it without getting paid......then god bless ya! I hope you get it back up and running soon.

With that being said, I hope this downtime raises a flag for the search engines and they take notice not to place thier eggs in one basket for indexing or at least consideration for indexing. I must say that since joining Google Sitemaps and Yahoo Explorer Beta, I have seen my sites get indexed much quicker then they did when I submitted my sites directly to DMOZ.

~B.

pvgool · Dec 14, 2006

Skeletje said:
That's why I don't want to go into debate with you anymore .

You either have a problem with reading or with understanding. Or maybe you just read what you want to read.

In fact Hutcheson and I wrote exactly the same, just in different words.
We both stated that buidling the directory is what editors do and that if we want to do so we can use the pool of suggested sites. CAN not MUST.

It would probaly be more clear if I had written
"reviewing suggested websites is not a task the editors are doing, we are building the directory and if we want we can use the pool of suggested sites to help us fullfill this task"

old_crone · Dec 14, 2006

With that being said, I hope this downtime raises a flag for the search engines and they take notice not to place thier eggs in one basket for indexing or at least consideration for indexing. I must say that since joining Google Sitemaps and Yahoo Explorer Beta, I have seen my sites get indexed much quicker then they did when I submitted my sites directly to DMOZ.

I have designed several websites that are indexed very well in Google and not one of them is listed in the dmoz directory. So, how would you explain that?

hutcheson · Dec 14, 2006

Thanks.

But it's not us doing the reconstruction--it's AOL techs and a handful of ODP technically-inclined metas.

And yes, it is unfortunate. And I understand AOL is doing some work to provide failsafes for us -- so NEXT time it won't take so long no matter.

As for the search engines, I'm sure in that respect they have the same attitude we do--pull from any good source. Of course, they're faster and less discriminating--everything's a tradeoff.

pvgool · Dec 14, 2006

XmWebdesign said:
I totally agree that it is very unfortunate and just plain stinks that the site has been down so long. What are you gonna do? I understand the burdens with reconstructing databases and if you all are doing it without getting paid......then god bless ya! I hope you get it back up and running soon.

We also don't like the fact that the editor server is down for such a long time and hope it will be available to us soon. But editors have no influence on the technical department. The technicians are payed employees of AOL.

XmWebdesign said:
I must say that since joining Google Sitemaps and Yahoo Explorer Beta, I have seen my sites get indexed much quicker then they did when I submitted my sites directly to DMOZ.

Which doesn't sound strange to me. Sitemaps and Explorer are build just for that purpose while DMOZ is not a tool for website promotion.

XmWebdesign · Dec 14, 2006

old_crone said:
I have designed several websites that are indexed very well in Google and not one of them is listed in the dmoz directory. So, how would you explain that?

No kidding......that is what I said, thanks for repeating my words back to me.

I don't work for DMOZ so you'll have to find your own answers to why that is....good luck with that. I was clearly speaking in regards to my own experiences and not in generalites to anyone elses.
Take Care,
~B.

XmWebdesign · Dec 14, 2006

pvgool said:
We also don't like the fact that the editor server is down for such a long time and hope it will be available to us soon. But editors have no influence on the technical department. The technicians are payed employees of AOL.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.......I didn't know that. Then it is very odd that it would take this long to restore the site or at the very least let people know what is going on. To be honest, I never cared for AOL and never will.

Skeletje · Dec 14, 2006

old_crone said:
I have designed several websites that are indexed very well in Google and not one of them is listed in the dmoz directory. So, how would you explain that?

DMOZ only gives you 1 point extra on the PR toolbar, if you have a pr6 getting in DMOZ will boost you to 8 and you will climb a bit higher in the serps. Nothing more nothing less.
This means that if you make a garbage site with PR1 or 0 a DMOZ listing won't do you any good. On the contrary, if you only have 0 or 1 in PR you are doing many things wrong and need to start building a decent site.

You get a link from a PR9, want the same effect? Spend 100 or 150$ and buy 3 spots in a pr 7+ directory. There are several good ones out there.

Skeletje · Dec 14, 2006

motsa said:
I'd almost guarantee that you're misreading whatever is there but, if it truly is worded in a way that makes it seem as though that is what it means, then it needs to be rewritten. An editor doesn't log into a category, they log into their account, and they must make an edit somewhere (not in a specific category) at least once every 4 months in order to keep their account from timing out for inactivity.

Got it from google's cache:

There is no time requirement. We appreciate any time you can commit to improving and developing the directory. In order to keep the community thriving, editor accounts will expire after 4 months of inactivity. This allows another editor the chance to take over an area where an inactive editor may have left off.

To me this means:"You need to log in at least every 4 months and edit/review/do something or your account gets deleted"

Also there is this: When you apply to become an editor you do this because you have a certain knowlegde and interest in particular category. As a newbie the logical thing is that you will be granted to only edit in that category so --------------->

In a direct way this means you need to login into your account at least every 4 months and edit in your category (what else can you do if you only have access to edit in a single category) because if you don't

This allows another editor the chance to take over an area where an inactive editor may have left off.

The area/category = your category will be given to another editor.

So it's all very straight forward to me, very logical. This applies to newbies but if you want to go into detail it doesn't apply to editors who more expanded acces etc... However people who apply to become an editor have a different interpretation of the above. They don't know the ins and outs and how you are organized.

Here is another bit that talks about how you will have to edit 1 single small category -----> your category

Do you have any tips on filling out the "become and editor" application?

There is no magic formula for creating the perfect application. Your application will be reviewed on a number of unique factors relative to the category in which you applied. In general, applicants should take care to apply to a small, underdeveloped category at first. Generally, applicants who apply for too broad of a category are asked to narrow their focus, and apply for a lower level category.

Hope you understand now why I and I'm sure most people think they would have to log into their account and edit their category at least once every 4 months or their account will get canned and their category will be given to someone else.

I know you guys like to talk and talk and talk but I have to get back to work.

I could have build an entire category of at least 50 links in the time I spent writing here.

hutcheson · Dec 14, 2006

>As a newbie the logical thing is that you will be granted to only edit in that category so --------------->

Well, that covers the first couple of weeks. But if one's been busy, then -------------- one has a reputation, and may apply for other categories.

Thus the assumption you make, unsupported and indeed contradicted by the editors' guidelines, is often quickly invalidated.

This allows another editor the chance to take over an area where an inactive editor may have left off.

This should be re-worded. Because the reality is, it doesn't matter whether an editor is active in a category or not. Another editor (new or old) can come in and share the work. Thanks for bringing that up; the whole paragraph needs work.

The area/category = your category will be given to another editor.

This is still not a fair paraphrase: the difference between "will" and "may" is obviously significant. And there is another, more subtle significant difference (one that may be lost on many people.)

Nobody owns a category. (In the editing community, even saying "my category" will get peanuts thrown at you.) A person may have "editing permissions" in a category, but those permissions are never exclusive. So "your" category can't ever be "given" -- only permissions in it. The text you quoted talks about someone else picking up the work. But it doesn't say that person wasn't already in the category -- that's just another unsupportable assumption.

But, as you've said, lack of support doesn't prevent assumptions from being popular. And we'll work on the wording there. In the meantime, you should assume that information you get here from an editor, unchallenged by other editors, is correct.

DMOZ is Dead...Long Live the Open Directory Movement!

crowbar

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hutcheson

Skeletje

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Skeletje

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Skeletje

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hutcheson

motsa

dogbows

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crowbar

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XmWebdesign

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old_crone

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XmWebdesign

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XmWebdesign

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