Issues

Ok, I am writting this to all webmasters and editors. I hope everybody reads this before they go down further the threads.

First I would like to say that
-I have long given up on being listed on DMOZ
-DMOZ will help you rank, but it is not necessary for ranking on #1

I am writting today as a webmaster. And I would like to tell all the fellow webmasters - submit to DMOZ once, and forget about it - if you get listed - good for you, if you dont - good for you......either way, it doesnt matter, better focuse on optimizing your website - exchanging good links with 3 of your ranked competitors has more weight than a link from DMOZ - quit beeing lazy.

-My top suggestion is not to submit your website to DMOZ - they dont care for your crappy site, so why should you care about theirs (I have just suspended an employe today, couse I found out she has submitted one of our sites to DMOZ). Dont link to them, do not use their directory - we are just putting too much power in the hands of people who cannot handle it. But if you dont agree - that's cool too.
-DMOZ is NOT an authority on almost all the categories they have. Just because they have not listed your site it doesnt mean it's not worth it. If you look around DMOZ and see what is listed, you'd quickly get the idea that you might be worth it because you have NOT been listed. So keep your head up.
-Quit asking where your site is - just type your domain name in your browser and you'd find out. Asking editors where is your site, why it has not been listed etc. will not get you anywehre - I have read enought posts to guarantee this.
-And last - if you dont know any editor - you are wasting your time for high proffit keywords - all sold out it seems...

Now, to the editors:
-If I seem a bit snappy - it's not because you have not listed me, it's because I read a bunch of posts here, and all I saw was offensive behavior towards every webmaster. I belong to the webmaster community and I take it peraonally every time.

Here are a few suggestions - they make sence, not hard to implement, and I can make them because I quote from DMOZ "Like any community, you get what you give. The Open Directory provides the opportunity for everyone to contribute." and another quote "We will do our best to list web sites in a fair and impartial manner, and consider all user requests and suggestions for improvement."

So this is what I contribute:

- First and foremost - Stop answering everything with "We are volunteers, that's why nobody can account for our actions" - that's crap! Being a vlunteer should speak for a character dedicated to the cause. You should do MORE because you are volunteers. I would hate to meet the volunteer-firefighter saying " I am not required to come to your house in case of fire, because I am a volunteer, and I can choose to which houses I go to."

-From the avatars I see, there are lots of old people working as editors. Maybe because of their age, they are not physically fit to be editors and because of this, lots of websites cannot get reviewed in a timely matter. So - why dont you take some young blood on board? No age discrimination here, but everybody should do what one is fit for - my grandpa would love to join the army, but at 84 - I dont think he can carry on the service, but he is a good guy.

-Instead of referring webmasters to your TOS all the time, you should refer yourself to your "Social Contract" - yes, you do have a contract with us, here is a point of this contract you may have forgotten, quote:

"5. We Encourage a Self-Regulating Community
We foster a self-regulating community governed by community-driven standards. We encourage the community to regulate itself, and to provide the checks and balances needed to ensure that its members follow mutually accepted codes of conduct and editorial standards. We depend on the honesty and integrity of the volunteer editors to ensure the directory is high quality, user-friendly, and free of abuse."

Now, if you have accepted an editor to "Flowers and Gardening", please, do not let them edit anything else (especcially "internet technologies") because they would NOT know anything about the community-driven standards...

- I would like to say something about refusing listing due to affiliate advertising. Do not use double standards, because right now I can show you many websites with MORE THAN 80% of their DMOZ listed page having nothing but banners. Websites like that in a competitive category have been reported hundreds of times, I am sure, but there is no action from the editors. Plus, 99% of the websites have affiliate content - if not direct, Adwords (which is absolutelly the same).

- And my last suggestion - close down this forum - instead of wasting your time "copying and pasting" the same response for every question - there are thousands of websites waiting to be reviewed. You were granted "editor" titles to edit DMOZ, not to chill at this forum - you guys have unfinished job - go an finish it.

Thanks for reading.

>> We are volunteers, that's why nobody can account for our actions <<

I could account for my own actions, but I cannot ever account for those of any other editor.
However, I am only accountable to the directory as an entity: to improve it in any way possible.

So most of your questions are .... unanswerable.

Maybe it's because I have not asked any questions - I suggested a few things...

However, I am only accountable to the directory as an entity: to improve it in any way possible.


That's true. I dont care if you smoke pot for example...

I have just suspended an employe today, couse I found out she has submitted one of our sites to DMOZ

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I see an unlawful dismissal suit in your future.

You should do MORE because you are volunteers.

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We should devote our lives to volunteering with the ODP? I volunteer where I want and how much I want. I owe no obligation to anyone to do more at the ODP than I already do and neither does any other editor or would-be editor.

I would hate to meet the volunteer-firefighter saying " I am not required to come to your house in case of fire, because I am a volunteer, and I can choose to which houses I go to."

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I wish people would stop comparing the ODP to volunteer fire fighting. It's a ludicrous comparison.

From the avatars I see, there are lots of old people working as editors.

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Does my avatar mean I'm really a cat then? Avatars are meaningless in an online community.

Maybe because of their age, they are not physically fit to be editors and because of this, lots of websites cannot get reviewed in a timely matter. So - why dont you take some young blood on board? No age discrimination here, but everybody should do what one is fit for - my grandpa would love to join the army, but at 84 - I dont think he can carry on the service, but he is a good guy.

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Seriously, though, what do you think we're doing here? It's not rocket science...or an athletic event, for that matter. Age is irrelevant.

Now, if you have accepted an editor to "Flowers and Gardening", please, do not let them edit anything else (especcially "internet technologies") because they would NOT know anything about the community-driven standards...

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I have no idea what point you intended to make with that statement.

Plus, 99% of the websites have affiliate content - if not direct, Adwords (which is absolutelly the same).

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Affiliate content by itself does not make a site unlistable. Not sure what else you'd like us to say.

And my last suggestion - close down this forum - instead of wasting your time "copying and pasting" the same response for every question - there are thousands of websites waiting to be reviewed. You were granted "editor" titles to edit DMOZ, not to chill at this forum - you guys have unfinished job - go an finish it.

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What an editor does with their time is really nobody's concern but theirs. If any one of us wants to fritter away hours doing something else--anything else--instead of editing, so what? My "job" at the ODP is not what you think it is so there's nothing to go "finish". My only duty as an editor is to leave the directory a little better than it was before I got there.

odpforall said:

-If I seem a bit snappy - it's not because you have not listed me, it's because I read a bunch of posts here, and all I saw was offensive behavior towards every webmaster. I belong to the webmaster community and I take it peraonally every time.

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Don't forget that we are part of a community too and if some of the responses here appear 'snippy' remember that the road travels both ways my friend. I take it personally when posts complaining about not being listed begin immediatedly an accusation that some corrupt, lazy competitor is holding them back. Also it is important to remember that this forum was created to help explain the processes and polices of the project. There are only a few editors who regularly participate on them and whether you want to here it or not-Just like the project, everyone is volunteering time to help here.

You have some serious problems if you think responses here are blunt/rude, especially after you have insulted all editors with distasteful comments (such as being to old) simply because the ODP editors do not work on what YOU want them to, when YOU want them to, and how YOU want them to do it.

Just for the record-I am a volunteer, I am 31 years old, and I am working on a hobby I enjoy. That includes trying to help those who actually want help (not an arguement, although I have been known to give those too) in this forum and other forums. I can assure you, that if I was not in this forum at the moment I would not be editing any sites either! I would be playing with my kids, taking my wife to dinner, working my real paying job, washing the car, mowing the yard, or one of the other 1000 things I haven't gotten done today.

Nothing precludes sites with Adsense/adwords from being lsited, provide that the site in itself has valid content and the Ads do not overwhelm the site.

Same applies to banners or other advertising.

There is no discrimination beacuse of age, we don't kick out old people. Likewise we do not hesitate to accept teenagers as editors. In fact, since no one asks the age of applicants to be editors, it's meaningless.

I belong to the webmaster community

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No idea what and where this is. However, many editors are webmasters {e.g. me] and many do not even have a single web site.

I have just suspended an employe today, couse I found out she has submitted one of our sites to DMOZ

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Sad, hope he/she finds a friendlier place to work.

Don't read beyond this line - you won't like it --------------------------
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I'm a volunteer, I choose to work when I like. I find it offensive to be called lazy.

No lawsuit here - all my employees know that our websites should not be submitted to ANY directory. She'd be fine I hope, but I do keep an account on my employees' actions.

As far as the affiliate content - here is a quote from "hudcheson" i believe, from a post on the previous page, quote: "But affiliation is only one of many forms of plagiarism--and affiliation is not disallowed because it's forbidden; it's disallowed because it conflicts with basic ODP goals. It is IMPOSSIBLE for such a site to provide unique, authoritative content. Only the actual business HAS the unique content; only the actual business can authoritatively declare what it does or does not offer."

So what is it? Do you guys know your own rules, or everbody makes them as they go? It's obvious that this editor says the opposite of what you say...

If you call yourself volunteer - you ARE a volunteer. If you dont like the fire-fighters, there are other volunteers - crime watch, YMCA, humane society - volunteer means only one thing, and you are no different.

Age was a joke, sorry you didnt get it, maybe I should have submitted it through DMOZ.

Quote:Don't forget that we are part of a community too and if some of the responses here appear 'snippy' remember that the road travels both ways my friend. I take it personally when posts complaining about not being listed begin immediatedly an accusation that some corrupt, lazy competitor is holding them back. - Most of the posts from webmasters ask why they have not been listed after YEARS of waiting. And yes, there is a corruption when we are talking about hundreds of thousand of dollars for some categories, and the same-ole crappy sites are listed.

Quote:Just for the record-I am a volunteer, I am 31 years old, and I am working on a hobby I enjoy. That includes trying to help those who actually want help (not an arguement, although I have been known to give those too) in this forum and other forums. I can assure you, that if I was not in this forum at the moment I would not be editing any sites either! I would be playing with my kids, taking my wife to dinner, working my real paying job, washing the car, mowing the yard, or one of the other 1000 things I haven't gotten done today. And that's exactly what I meant:
1.) You dont do anything.
2.) From your response I assume the category you edit is a hobby - so how would you set the industry-standards when you are just a mare newbie?
3.) If you cannot find the time to get your job done - quit - you are a volunteer, as you brag, so nobody has tied you to DMOZ - there a plenty of people who would love to do your job, and might actually get around doing it.

Do you guys actually think that by not doing anything you help the directory be a little better?!? I guess you are right...

odpforall said:

you guys have unfinished job - go an finish it.

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Thank you. Motivated by your post I just added another site to the directory. Unfortunately, instead of taking it from the long list of unreviewed proposals, I took it from my memory and added it to an approbiate category. So the job will stay unfinished (and if we are honoust we have to admit that the job "building a web directory" will never end).

It's a start.

Ah, I think I see the problem here. You see, I don't call myself a "webmaster", any more than I call myself a "walker" or a "typist". The fact is, the majority of people can learn all these incredibly simple skills. And if I use a computer keyboard, or if I publish a website, or I drag my creaking bones erect and move myself (perhaps with the aid of a walker) to some other location -- that does not define my identity. I have marketable skills and hobbies and interests and beliefs, which do something to describe the people with whom I share a common interest. Walkers? Typists? Webmasters? Brown-haired people? all of these categories are far too broad, far too heterogenous, far too vague, to have any interest whatsoever for me.

How about someone whose highest and proudest and most exclusive self-description is that he ... can "walk"? That's a great achievement -- for a tiny fraction of the population who are severely handicapped. Suppose someone can "type"? Again, a great skill to learn in elementary school, if you missed out in kindergarten. But as a basis for solid sense of self-achievement, a pretty bad joke on yourself.

"webmaster": ditto, in spades.

Bring me a scholar, lawyer, a musician, an artist, a plumber, who has created a website: and I'm interested in his contributions to human culture. Bring me a real estate agent who hired his ten-year-old nephew to create a website for him: and I'm willing to list his contributions to the global economy. Bring me a fan of music, literature, professional sports, or even line dancing: and, you never can tell, I might just be fascinated.

Tell me about someone whose proudest boast is that he walks and talks (even at the same time), or uses a screwdriver, or is a webmaster. And ... arrogant about it.

Look, forget this "webmaster" label. Go out and do something to contribute somehow to the human economy or human culture. Come back and tell us you're an amateur writer, or a professional hairdresser, or ANYTHING. But whether you can type or not, or use frontpage or not -- nobody on earth cares. Anybody who needs THAT narrow and shallow set of skills, can go to the bookstore, and by Monday they'll have them. Anyone who doesn't need the skills, won't be impressed.

odpforall said:

Most of the posts from webmasters ask why they have not been listed after YEARS of waiting. And yes, there is a corruption when we are talking about hundreds of thousand of dollars for some categories, and the same-ole crappy sites are listed.

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Go back and actually read a few of them. Most of the ones that have what I would consider blunt answers-nearly all start out sweet and innocent and end with the same old blah blah blah-The editor must be a competitor, there is no named editor so the category won't be maintained........

odpforall said:

And that's exactly what I meant:
1.) You dont do anything.
2.) From your response I assume the category you edit is a hobby - so how would you set the industry-standards when you are just a mare newbie?
3.) If you cannot find the time to get your job done - quit - you are a volunteer, as you brag, so nobody has tied you to DMOZ - there a plenty of people who would love to do your job, and might actually get around doing it.

Do you guys actually think that by not doing anything you help the directory be a little better?!? I guess you are right...

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Well you have succeded in doing something that almost never happens. You have gotten under my skin. Usually I consider myself level headed, courteous , and helpful. But it is exactly people like you that cause many good volunteers to walk away.
For your information-The categories that I edit are all of Regional as well as some Business, Society, Shopping an Recreation. In two years of editing I have, I have logged well over 15K edits. You have absolutely no understanding of the project other than it doesn't do what YOU want it to therefore it must be flawed.
This thread is pointless, you have no intention of trying to understand anyone's points or opinions but your own, and all you are trying to do is belittle and provoke people. I have no desire to continue following it and there is no reason to continue to try and carry on a discussion -Congratulations you have accomplished your goal. Perhaps someone else is willing to 'waste' time on you, but I won't continue to do so. I have much better things to do.

>> If you cannot find the time to get your job done - quit <<

Why is there this logic block where people assume that if the thousand editors that do just 5 edits a month all quit that MORE work would get done?

Please tell me WHO would do it?

when you are just a mare newbie

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That would be a female horse who hasn't born a foal. I don't think shadow is a horse

"5. We Encourage a Self-Regulating Community
We foster a self-regulating community governed by community-driven standards. We encourage the community to regulate itself, and to provide the checks and balances needed to ensure that its members follow mutually accepted codes of conduct and editorial standards. We depend on the honesty and integrity of the volunteer editors to ensure the directory is high quality, user-friendly, and free of abuse."

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This particular paragraph is describing the internal workings of the DMOZ community - and that has very little to do with flowers or webmasters.

See - that's a problem - hudcheson - instead of "typing" why dont you call bobrat and let him/her know that sites with affiliate content are not allowed in the directory.
+ I can get the "DMOZ editor" skills much faster than you can learn FrontPage.
+ Let me expand - allmost everybody here calls themselves "webmasters", and what this means is NOT that we create "websites for websites", but it means that we have a business, but instead of sub-contracting the webdesign,SEO, Internet Marketing and all those aspects of a website being "online" - we do it ourselves. As you may know, we all submit in categories other than "HTML" I am trully sorry you have not been able to understand that.

Quote:Why is there this logic block where people assume that if the thousand editors that do just 5 edits a month all quit that MORE work would get done?Please tell me WHO would do it?
I would. I am willing to pick a category of my interest, and I guarantee you I will visit it every day, even if there are no submissions to it - just to check it out. Just one category, this way I can "volunteer" 15min a day. I will add my website to it, just like most editors have done, and admit doing it, in which I see nothing wrong. And I bet you guys go through THOUSANDS of applications a week and you'd find someone to do more than just 5 edits a month.

Quote:For your information-The categories that I edit are all of Regional as well as some Business, Society, Shopping an Recreation. In two years of editing I have, I have logged well over 15K edits.
Dont you think that's a little too much for one person to handle? Why dont you stick to the category you selected when applying to become an editor and this way you'd have plenty of time left for 1000 other things?

Quote:That would be a female horse who hasn't born a foal. I don't think shadow is a horse
Sorry, I guess it's not that easy to be a "typist".

But enough with the yaking - I see what you guys do everytime someone rasies a legitimate concern - 5-6 editors start posting smart remarks and the whole thread is lost. Good tactic.

If you would post, I believe, the best thing to do is stick to the facts - enough female horses and typists...

Hudcheson - From your posts on another thread I have quoted - please, be kind enough to give us all a straigh answer - Is affiliate content forbidden or not? (Yes/No).

Shadow575 - we got it dude - you dont edit sites. There is nothing else of interest you could say.

Imocr - yeah, it's funny when someone misspells hahaha nappy time.

Sachti - good going man. I am actually glad you have done what you said you would. I guess you value your time better than anyone sofar.

If you call yourself volunteer - you ARE a volunteer. If you dont like the fire-fighters, there are other volunteers - crime watch, YMCA, humane society - volunteer means only one thing, and you are no different.

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Mmmm hmmmm. And? A "volunteer" is just someone who gives their time and energy towards a common goal for no pay. There's no all-encompassing expectation of time or energy commitment inherent in the word. Most volunteer organizations require a specific commitment but that specific commitment varies from organization to organization, as it should. A volunteer fire brigade would fall toward one end of the spectrum. Dog walker at the SPCA would fall somewhere nearer to the other.

The ODP requires a specific commitment but it's not anywhere near what you want it to be. We don't expect editors to devote their lives to the directory. Rather, we welcome any time and effort they can put in that leaves the directory better than it was before that effort was put in. It's pretty simple. I know it's not what you (and many others) want it to be but I can't help that. It is what it is.

Motsa - I somewhat agree, but it's hypocritical for an editor to post "I dont have time to edit", or "I was volunteered to post at the DMOZ forum, not to edit DMOZ"...

Sofar in this thread no editor has come up with anything constructive - horses and walkers will make DMOZ better...

See - that's a problem - hudcheson - instead of "typing" why dont you call bobrat and let him/her know that sites with affiliate content are not allowed in the directory.

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You're confusing things. Affiliate sites (i.e. sites that are essentially nothing but affiliate content) are unlistable. Sites with affiliate content are not necessarily unlistable.

I would. I am willing to pick a category of my interest, and I guarantee you I will visit it every day, even if there are no submissions to it - just to check it out. Just one category, this way I can "volunteer" 15min a day. I will add my website to it, just like most editors have done, and admit doing it, in which I see nothing wrong. And I bet you guys go through THOUSANDS of applications a week and you'd find someone to do more than just 5 edits a month.

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There's no set quota of editors. An editor doing 5 edits a month isn't taking up space that someone else could be using. Knowing that, why would it make sense to remove anyone who is actually working towards the common goal, the growth of the directory, even if it is only a small contribution?

Dont you think that's a little too much for one person to handle? Why dont you stick to the category you selected when applying to become an editor and this way you'd have plenty of time left for 1000 other things?

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The fact that an editor can edit in any category does not make them responsible for that category. There is no ownership. Again, why would it make sense to make very active editors edit less? The category that I started out in was cleaned up and filled within a few weeks -- would the directory have been better off if I'd just stayed with that one little category, if I'd never made the 40000+ edits that I've done since then all over the directory? Does that really seem logical? I suspect that you have a fundamental misunderstanding about the ODP. Perhaps becoming an editor would give you the insight you lack. Or perhaps not.

>Let me expand - allmost everybody here calls themselves "webmasters", and what this means is NOT that we create "websites for websites", but it means that we have a business, but instead of sub-contracting the webdesign,SEO, Internet Marketing and all those aspects of a website being "online" - we do it ourselves.

Of COURSE you do. And ... what in any of that would be of any interest to anyone on earth? If only you had mentioned ANYTHING, anything at ALL of interest. If you were an underwater basketweaver, someone could care. Now, whether you do your own web design or hire it done -- nobody on earth could care less. It's your underwater basketweaving that is the only conceivable excuse for the website! And as for SEO and marketing, that is of interest only to the the underwater basketweaver, nobody else on earth cares about that!

The common interest of most of us HERE is that we are "surfers." We like looking for websites that contain something different. We spend our time digging past, jumping over, or linking around sites created by people who call themselves "webmasters". We call them "spam." Our purpose in life, our glory and our unique achievement is that we are GOOD at evading the search-engine promotions, avoiding the marketing, and finding the REAL content on the web: content created by people who have skills that might benefit other people; or interests that other people might share.

Motsa - I somewhat agree, but it's hypocritical for an editor to post "I dont have time to edit", or "I was volunteered to post at the DMOZ forum, not to edit DMOZ"...

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No one has ever said that they were volunteered to post here. But, think about it: you're free to post wherever you feel like, spend your time doing whatever you want. Becoming an ODP editor doesn't suddenly rob people of that freedom. If I choose to spend an hour today posting here or even just playing Solitaire, that's my choice. It's not time I would have been editing. It's time I would have spent doing something else, maybe cleaning my house or mowing the lawn.