Issues

Hudcheson - you did not understand - we design websites for what we do for living. There are many people interested in "pipes" for exmaple, and if selling pipes is what I do - why wouldnt people be interested in what I do?
But at the same time - if you dont know squat about pipes - how would you be able to decide if my site is worth it? Do I have to have pretty pictures or something? Do you know how to pack a pipe? To light it? The difference between english and turkish tobacco? How would you know if my website does not list mor information then the ones already listed? So far you can judje my website by the way it was designed, period. You know nothing about pipes. That's what I mean by everybody sticking to their own categories.

And just because I have submitted a website in a gambling category, it doesnt mean I dont know what I'm talking about. Yeah, lots of spammers and what not, but take a look at the websites you guys have listed - nothing but banners to casinos. But my site ranks without your help, and I know the money being made in this industry - I can pay you $50K today for a link on DMOZ - will you be so honest then? Again - I am not upset because you have not listed my site - I got it where I want it to be without your help - just fix up your attitude towards us, the "FrontPageClickers"...

>and if selling pipes is what I do - why wouldnt people be interested in what I do?

Just so. And people who provide pipes, and who want to engage the interests of others, would, don't you think, describe themselves as "tobacconists" or "pipe carvers" or "specialty shopkeepers" or something related to their unique commercial niche.

And, by the same logic, someone who carves and sells briarwood pipes in his own workshop would never, in a thousand years, describe himself as a signpainter -- even if he had designed, painted, and installed all the signs in that workshop! Nor would he describe himself as a "webmaster" just because he designed, published, and promoted a website listing his unique smoking equipment.

It's simple logic.

The same logic - if you describe yourself as a DMOZ editor in the forum, how would you know anything about pipes?

This gets us nowhere - most of us are not as stupid as you wish they were.

Here, I will not jsut talk, but show you the facts (remove the x to visit):
xhttp://dmoz.org/Games/Gambling/Guides/

xhttp://www.winneronline.com/ - what do you call 15 big casino banners on the front page - unique content?

xhttp://www.online-gambling-rules.org/ - NO unique content, not to mention no content AT ALL!

I could keep on going but this will give you the general idea of unique and interesting content haha

Oh, yeah, I am not webmaster now, I am a gambler.

And this one just CRACKS ME UP
xhttp://www.americancasinoguide.com/Tips/gaming_tips.shtml

You tell me what's so interesting in this page, because I am a gambler and I see nothing. But even a dry-waller would see nothing...

>> I would. I am willing to pick a category of my interest, and I guarantee you I will visit it every day <<

That is great, but I still need you to do the edits in the other 999 categories that do not now have an editor after you sacked them all for only making 5 edits per month each.

So if you are going to volunteer to replace them, then I need you to process every site in all 1000 categories that no longer have an editor. And I need that done daily.

If you can't do that, then maybe it is better that we retain those other 999 editors and graciously accept that whatever amount that they can edit as being helpful.

Or could you come up with a better plan?

I got a good plan - Each editor reviews only their own category, this way in most of them 5 edits a month would be sufficient, but edits of course are not necessary - 10 min a day of reviewing the sites. More popular categories would have 10 editors, but again, only for those categories. If there are no editors for a category - obviously noone is interested in it duh.

Here - I will edit the category above - I will place winneronline in the "Publication" subcategory, and I will remove the other two - now, it took me 20 sec. I can volunteer that much. But it's because I dont have to go and edit "Pipes" and "Sexy Lingere"

OK. So I have listed the 50 sites that cover every single part of the topic I am interested in. There is nothing else to be said on the subject that hasn't already been covered several times over.

I have logged in every day for the last year, and processed the two site suggestions that other people supplied. What should I do now?

Well, the ODP says: "apply for more categories and do good work in those" - otherwise we are going to need 583 000 editors all sat there doing almost nothing.

And, once the editor has moved on and now has thousands of cateogories that they "could" edit in, it is now impossible for them to edit in every single one of them, but that isn't a bad thing. If editors could only edit in one catoegory, then the state of play right now would be 8000 well tended cateogries, and 575 000 where nothing could ever be editied because no-one had permissions to do any editing there.

And, what if someone now submits another site to that category with 50 sites already listed? The editor is elsewhere. His attention is focussed upon building something else. That one site is not going to change the course of history - but it still has a chance to be listed, because there are several hundred editors that can edit in all 583 000 ODP categories. One day, one of them, rather than the original editor might just happen to drop by and take a look....





>> if you dont know squat about pipes - how would you be able to decide if my site is worth it? Do I have to have pretty pictures or something? Do you know how to pack a pipe? To light it? The difference between english and turkish tobacco? <<

... but an editor having looked at several hundred "pipes" sites would very quickly be able to spot the sites that have the unique content - content that tells the amateur how to spot fake tobacco, the right way to pack a pipe, the differences in types of tobacco, and so on - from those sites that are just an affiliate doorway to pipes-r-us, or lead generators for pipes-now, and take the appropriate action with those suggestions.

Exactly, that's why that editor should edit Pipes, but not Gambling, and right now it seems like the guy from Pipes is editing Gambling

Exactly, I wouldn't describe myself as an ODP editor unless ODP editing experience were somehow relevant. Which, in most of life's contexts, it isn't. It's just a hobby some friends know about.

And that is precisely the point. Everything you describe as "webmastering" is utterly irrelevant to everyone. You do it for yourself (and if you appreciate it, that is all that can conceivably matter.) When you do something for someone else, then ... someone else might be interested.

What's something for someone else? Information you know. Goods and Services you yourself can provide (whether for sale or exchange or as a gift). Is it on your website or contributed to someone else's? NOBODY CARES! Did you hire someone to polish it (if that's the right word) with fontplague, or did you do it yourself? NOBODY CARES! Is it promoted and advertised? Now, SOME people may care that the site is promoted well enough for them to find. But WE don't even care about -- if we've found it, we'll make sure the next person can find it.

So, once more, forget the "webmaster" label. It does not inspire or deserve any respect. ("We've known too many webmasters.") Anyone who's willing to contribute something to human culture has the same standing. Think of everything about the ODP as being set up for surfers, with "webmasters" allowed on sufferance (because they might also be surfers sometimes), but only so long as they do NOT try to push "webmaster concerns."

Each editor reviews only their own category, this way in most of them 5 edits a month would be sufficient, but edits of course are not necessary

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If the editors we have aren't "keeping up with suggestions" (so to speak) to the degree that everyone seems to want us to, what makes you think that doing what you suggest here will have a better effect? Hmm, let's take the 7000-ish active editors and, instead of letting them edit where they have an interest and a desire, we'll only let them edit one category apiece. Whoo hoo!! That's 7000 categories taken care of. Awesome! Now, who's going to look after the other 583,000?

If there are no editors for a category - obviously noone is interested in it duh.

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Did you read what you just wrote? Read it again...and really think about it as you ask yourself why some categories don't get edited as often as others.

Here, I will not jsut talk, but show you the facts (remove the x to visit):

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Feel free to post things like those in the dedicated thread we have just for that in the Quality Control forum. Site content changes -- what might have been listable at one time doesn't always stay listable. Directory guidelines change and tighten up -- again, what might have been listable at one time doesn't always stay listable. And, yes, occasionally people make mistakes.

>> show you the facts <<

Up until last month enred.org was a highly respectable site as the collective for the major South-American ISPs. And had been for almost a decade. And now, it isn't (not work safe).

People pull that sort of stunt all the time.

And your point is?

(But if you spot that sort of junk before an ODP editor does, then use the many ways we have put in place to alert us: the dedicated thread in this forum, the "update listing" link in each category, and even editor feedback).

Here - I dont like what has become from DMOZ, but if it was a good working organization - I could volunteer to edit Gambling - I know who is who in the business, I know all about content, since our industry has the highest level of content copying, sh*t, I know the biggest spammers by face met them at conferences, and I can deffinitelly recognize a spammy website in this industry.

I would edit only Gambling, since I know nothing about Chevy Parts. But I love working in the industry, I am on the net 24-7 but I spend my time on Gambling, not Chevy Parts. And I see no problem visiting Gambling once a day and checking for new additions - which would be hundreds, but all I need is a look to know what's worth a second look. And once a week I can volunteer 10 min to visit each site in the category for quality content. And I will never visit a site from Chevy Parts couse I dont know nothing, and I will never edit a site from a different category - because I will forget to double check it later.

And it sounds great, and trust me, nobody would complain about gambling because it would be checked every day. But for a big category like that - let there be 3 editors. This way even if one of us goes on 4 month vacation - we could still do the job without struggling. And I will have a good relation with the other 2 editors, and we would comunicate on everyday basis, and I'd be like: "Dude, I need to put a fence today, so why dont you edit for me and I'd owe you one" or "Man, how about I do Video Poker, and you do Slots"

And I can see what they are posting, and if I see their friend's site not worth jack, we would remove it, because this "you brush my shoulder I'll brush yours" would hurt not only DMOZ but me and the other editor.

And this is the differnece between the pipe-webmaster and the pipe afficionado - we both know pipes, but I know pipes on the Internet, because I am a part of this industry on the Internet as well.

This is a very simple idea and it would work, but many of you would loose your positions, because there would be no need of non-editing-editors.
What you dont understand about the pipe-webmaster, hudch, is that we love what we do, we know what we do, and we know who does what. The simple fact that editors are saying that DMOZ does not reflect on Google ranking tells me how much they understand what they are doing.

My job is not to go and roof a house during the day, and then come back home and edit "Mercedes Parts", for example, my job is to work on my mercedes benz forum and my mercedes benz autotparts store and I know who is building doorway pages for benz parts...plus, I would have time to visit the DMOZ, and I would be loving it...

I'm not sure how your fantasy would work out in practice. (I can guess, and it would be an educated guess because I actually have some related experience, but ... I can't be sure.)

But my opinion of your methods is really irrelevant: in fact, it's exactly as irrelevant as your opinion of mine. You have a website, and you can do whatever you want with it. If you had ever thought your idea had a grain of value in it, you've have been in a position, all along, to go make two friends and try it out. If you DON'T think the idea has enough merit for you to do it on your nickel -- then I'd tend to agree with you, and save my nickel for something else also.

And it sounds great, and trust me, nobody would complain about gambling because it would be checked every day. But for a big category like that - let there be 3 editors.

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There could be any number of editors in a category. There's no quota, nothing that says there can only be one editor in a category, so it's not a matter of "letting" editors edit; it's a matter of how many people actually find a topic interesting enough to edit. If, on the other hand, you're talking about sharing a single editor login among 3 people, that would be a Very Bad Idea.

and I'd be like: "Dude, I need to put a fence today, so why dont you edit for me and I'd owe you one"

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Since in reality there's no commitment of any kind on your part or any other editors' parts, you don't need to find a replacement to "take over" your editing while you get on with Life nor is there a favour-for-a-favour mentality. If you have to put a fence in today, go put a fence in today.

This is a very simple idea and it would work, but many of you would loose your positions, because there would be no need of non-editing-editors.

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I give up. You really aren't paying attention to anything anyone has written here, are you.

Motsa - you are not paying attention. What I described is NOT how DMOZ works, but how DMOZ would actually WORK, and not just idle under the burden of 10,000 current editors, 9990 of which clearly not doing anything, but every once in a blue moon.

Hutch - it would work, I have worked on projects before, and if there is a will there is a way. But as you say - the current team of which you are part does not work that way.

From all the post I read in this forum, this might as well have been full with the most honest editor answers:

Question: Why so long for a website to be reviewed?

Editors answer:Just for the record-I am a volunteer, I am 31 years old, and I am working on a hobby I enjoy. That includes trying to help those who actually want help (not an arguement, although I have been known to give those too) in this forum and other forums. I can assure you, that if I was not in this forum at the moment I would not be editing any sites either! I would be playing with my kids, taking my wife to dinner, working my real paying job, washing the car, mowing the yard, or one of the other 1000 things I haven't gotten done today.
That pretty much answers it.

Question: Can websites with affiliate content get listed?

Editors answer: (I got two totally oposite answers from different editors) so the general answwer would be - we dont have a strict guideline, but even if we did - who cares.

Question: I have submitted my website 2+ months ago - will it get listed?

Answer: Probably not, but there is a little chance if it ranks on Google and one of the editors find it and think it's interesting.

Question: Why the category I applied for has so many spammy sites and mine is not listed?

Amswer: Obviously the editors add a website and forget the fact that it's not a statue and it changes over time. You keep on sending the abuse thingy and some might get removed.

Question: What is the best way to submit to DMOZ?

Answer: For God's sake - dont. Most likely will not be listed and you will never be able to try again. The best way is to optimize for Google, and wait for the editors to search and find you, and think you are interesting.

And just to make sure that no more webmasters would b*tch about not being listed, please, understand that the editors actually edit categories that they might have no experience with, but because they have browsed the web, they know what's worth. This should also add to the answer of why your site has not been lsited.


Now, if you guys post this as a sticky - I bet you the complains would be 95% less next time around. Just be honest with the people instead of constantly refering them to guideliness on which even you disagree.

The ODP has 583 000 categories. Where the heck are you going to find the 582 990 extra editors that you say we need?

In 7 years, only 70 000 people have ever helped out on the ODP site; how are you going to find 8 times that number in the space of, say, less than a year?

Do you think that 10000 editors on 583 000 categories is the reciepe for good quality?!?!

Obviously not. Why dont you shorten them a little bit or assign more editors. I am pretty sure that you get enough applications. Plus, I dont think that most of your categories are worth existing as they do not carry any value - it's faster and more convinient for the user to search Google (since you clearly getting most of the sites there) for "Fency woodwork" in Someville, Somestate, Somecountry - do you know how much clicking that would be for the user?!? Even if he/she knew where to start to follow the link, it woud be, check out this real example for real estate agent in california:
http://www.dmoz.org/Regional/North_.../Atascadero/Business_and_Economy/Real_Estate/

Are you serrious?!?

I can get the "DMOZ editor" skills much faster than you can learn FrontPage.

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Indicating you have no clue of what's involved in being an editor. Front page is much easier to learn.

assign more editors

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There is not some large room somewhere filled with editors waiting for work. Unless you are suggesting we allow every applicant to be an editor - now that would be a true disaster.

check out this real example for real estate agent in california:
http://www.dmoz.org/Regional/North_A...y/Real_Estate/

Click to expand...

The way you do it is to be smart and use search and enter Atascadero real estate - much faster than drilling down -life is too short