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chaz7979

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Aug 29, 2005
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I am looking for a clarification on

"submissions of the same or related sites may result in the exclusion and/or deletion of those and all affiliated sites."

What constitutes a related site? I thought it was obvious, in that they could not have the same content or the same product. But I think I may be wrong???
 

bobrat

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If you have two different URL's for the same business that essentially contain the same information, but are directed at different markets - that's related. Only submit one.

If you have a URL for your company, and separate URL's for specific products, only the company URL should be suggested.

If the information about your company is spread over different URL's you should only submit one of them. It's up to you to have them linked together.
 

giz

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Anything that has the vaguest of overlap betwen the two sites usually disbars one or more of them from being listed. We cannot list what most of those criteria are, you understand, as that helps the spammers who want to craft a site that they hope we will not detect as being spam.
 

hutcheson

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There are all sorts of possible "relationships." Two sites by the same entity (that is: person, or group of persons working together) are obviously closely related, and if they both purport to describe (some part of) that entity's commercial dealings, they are so closely related that we'd consider them one site.
 

chaz7979

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I dont want to spam and talk about my sites so I will show two very similar ones.

boxedart.com - web templates
123webmaster.com - webmaster resources

Any problem with listing both of them even though they are the same company and both are listed in their network of sites? (they are both listed right now, but lets assume that may be wrong)

Should I tell you the 2 sites in question?
 

chaz7979

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This site is a great resource by the way, that I did not know existed until today.

If anyone knows of a category in desperate need of an editor please let me know. I have applied before but no luck. Maybe I should have applied to some other category, but I tried all the ones I had good knowledge on.
 

lmocr

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Jun 8, 2005
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How about applying to edit your hometown? Of course if you live in a large city like Seattle, Washington, you would want to apply for a subcategory of your hometown. On the other hand, if you live in Ames, Nebraska, you might want to apply for a close city that's large enough to have more than one website :) .
 

hutcheson

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OK, there are two separate questions here. (1) Is it OK for editors to list two URLs from the same "site or set of related sites"? and (2) Is it OK to SUBMIT two URLs from the same "SOSORS"?

The answer to #1 is simply, "yes, but only in exceptional cases."

The answer to #2 is basically "No, never" -- although editors may sometimes talk to exceptionally rich resource sites about systematic deeplinking. But that's obviously a VERY special case.

What you see in the ODP now is what editors have done (which, of course, doesn't mean it's right...) But, right or wrong, it's not a safe guide to what's acceptable for submitters.

I won't comment on the two sites you mention: but in general, Computer sites are MUCH less often deeplinked than they were several years ago -- and sensibly so, with so much more content online now.

<another passing remark>Some of the difference is attitudinal. If you look at the typical whinging-spammeister forum, you'll see the SM's whinging about the number of listings some site or another has in the ODP. But when an editor is looking at deeplinks, we're never looking at the number of listings a SITE has (in order to be promoted): we're looking at what content a CATEGORY needs in order to be comprehensive -- and so a site that focuses on topics desperately needing content, often has, and often ought to have, more listings than a site containing more vague, general, unfocused, or common content.

And, as an aside, the whingers are usually flogging e-commerce sites, and (because basically all spam is e-commerce or e-fraud pretending to be e-commerce) rules are very strict about companies engaging in e-commerce: basically, they get at most one listing in either Shopping or Business, and anything else brings out the spam cops faster than a disaster area attracts politicians.
 

chaz7979

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Your replies are good but often very deep. I consider myself a savvy web user and I do not understand this or many of your posts as fully as I think you would want me to.

You are not commenting on those sites in question, could you provide examples or sites? I think if people in general had visuals instead of words that could be misconstrued you would have fewer problems with submissions...IMO of course.

Now I feel like a real idiot...I search for "SOSORS" and found nothing. What does it mean? I dont think I asked about question (2) did I?

I won't comment on the two sites you mention: but in general, Computer sites are MUCH less often deeplinked than they were several years ago -- and sensibly so, with so much more content online now.

I dont think either of those sites are deeplinking. That was never a question in my eyes.
 

hutcheson

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(1) The abbreviation "SOSORS" is defined by the quoted expression in the previous sentence.

(2) I think of the total of all domain names over which you have spread your answer to, say, the question "Who are you and what do you know?" as one site ["or set of related sites'], regardless of how many different domains it is spread over. From that perspective, listing two different URLs from among all those pages is "deeplinking", regardless of whether the two URLs happen to be on the same domain. That attitude is "focused on reality" rather than "focused on promotional desires". Reality is the man behind all the curtains.

In this context, some guy sets up as a web developer. He offers many different services related to the internet; in his spare time he whips up pages about what he knows well(*) -- that is, aspects of web design and maintenance. All of that content is reflection of that person -- his relevant knowledge, experience in his business. So "sam's website design business", "sam's website hosting business", "sam's website design tutorials" -- all are really on the same subject -- "Who is Sam, what does he know, what would he do for money?"

Sam shouldn't be submitting more than one page. Now, editors may think Sam's Javascript and Flash tutorial pages are cool, while his CSS tutorial is seriously brain-damaged. And maybe Javascript (but not Flash) is well-documented on the web. In that case, only the Flash tutorial would be considered for a deeplink.

(*) If he is honest, this is what he does. If he's dishonest, he claims to be an authority on some common search term, and starts spewing out lots and lots of little websites with grammatically correct but incoherent promotional babble as a backdrop for advertising banners.
 

chaz7979

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site or set of related sites....damn I cant believe I missed that.

If Sam offer web hosting and a site on tutorials I would say they are in no way related. How can you compare a web hosting business to a tutorial on CSS? One is a company offering a product, and one is purley informational, and the two are not related in nature.

Just like boxedart sell templates. ( does not offer webmaster resources)
while 123webmaster has webmaster resources. ( does not sell templates)

Its not even apples and oranges, its steak and pineapple.

So I am taking from what you wrote that you do not think both should be listed. If in fact you do think they should be listed can you let me know. I am so confused. Neither are my sites. Nor do I work with said sites. I just needed an example and they were both listed.

Can you dumb down your answer? Pretend you are a newbie just for a second, no matter how bad it hurts ;)
 

spectregunner

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I'd vote that they are related, they both deal with internet stuff.

Now, if one dealt with wembaster stuff and the other sold slightly used bowling balls, then we would be talking about different content.
 

chaz7979

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spectregunner said:
Now, if one dealt with wembaster stuff and the other sold slightly used bowling balls, then we would be talking about different content.

<--- runs to build a site about slightly used bowling balls ;)

spectregunner said:
I'd vote that they are related, they both deal with internet stuff.

That is an amazingly enormous spectrum.

If that is the way of DMOZ (which is totally cool with me) than only 1 site should be allowed for or any site in the bigresources.com, reallybig.com, or aaahtml.com network to name just a few that deal with "internet stuff". I am sure I could find more with multiple sites listed if needed.

Would all the editors agree?
 

pvgool

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chaz7979 said:
If that is the way of DMOZ (which is totally cool with me) than only 1 site should be allowed for or any site in the bigresources.com, reallybig.com, or aaahtml.com network to name just a few that deal with "internet stuff". I am sure I could find more with multiple sites listed if needed.

Would all the editors agree?
No. This question was already answered by Hutcheson.
Editors are allowed to list a site multiple times, or to list deeplinks or to list related sites.
But in the proces of suggesting a site only 1 url is allowed to be suggested. If you have many domains (in our visions these domains probably are 1 site) you should suggest the main domain-url. It is your task to link all these domains together into 1 site.
 

chaz7979

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He said

The answer to #1 is simply, "yes, but only in exceptional cases."

So those sites are all exceptional cases?

Should they not just have 1 domain listed, and have it be their job to link them all together?
 

arubin

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Without checking any specifics...

Those sites are exceptional cases or mistakes....
 

chaz7979

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Aug 29, 2005
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I would say they would have to be one or the other.

So in an effort to clean things up I want to post in the bad links section to maybe help me become a better editor when the time comes. What should and what should not be posted is still a mystery. What is an exceptional case and what is a mistake is unknown? It sounds like the system needs clarification.

I have a lot of knowledge in the area of webmaster resources in general and could help clean up hundreds of links no problem. I may understand relationships between sites and owners better than most of the editors.
 

spectregunner

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It sounds like the system needs clarification.

It is more a matter of experience. As editors get thousands of edits under their belts, they get a good understanding of everything that goes into the decision making process.

It is also not something that we feel a compelling need to train the general public on. We tend to keep answers in this forum general, rather than overly specific.

If there is an existing category that has links you believe are suspect, we have a thread where the general public can report their suspicions and observations. Before posting, however, I recommend that interested visitors scroll through the last half dozen or so pages to get a feel for what types of things are actionable.
 

hutcheson

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Let me put it this way. It is to the surfer's benefit for each webmaster's site to be more comprehensive and more authoritative (that is, that it give a fuller picture of its author, so that the surfer can have the information necessary to judge the quality of the information given.

So that's what we as editors want to see. On the other hand, if it is in the author's interest to promote his content, then he'll either link it all together as appropriate (either that, or he's just a sneaky spammer, and we don't care WHAT happens to him, so long as it it painful.)

Now, if the author is doing an honest job of exposing the material to people interested in (say) web development technologies, then the ODP can do its job most effectively -- that is, expose the author -- and, for tutorial material that is "exceptional" -- not the top twenty percent, or the top ten percent, but far and away the top one percent) -- editors will be able to find it and deeplink it as necessary on our own.

As a quick, simple answer, try this -- it really works. Make one site that fully, comprehensively, answers the question: "Who are you, what do you know, what have you done, what would you do for money?"

We want to link to that site. And as you learn, as you do new things, you want to add to it.

Beyond that, we do what we think our surfers would find most useful. That's editorial judgment, and it's not always reduceable to simplistic rules. In general, it means we tend to list the deeplinks we need most, not the deeplinks you want most. And that means we are usually quicker to add new sites than to delete no-longer-exceptional but still mildly useful deeplinks. (The net effect is to give a lasting reward to people who pioneer particular kinds of online content -- and we don't think that's a BIT unfair!)
 

chaz7979

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Aug 29, 2005
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Hopefully I will not be just the "public" much longer. As I applied to be the editor for my home town category. I can not see any reason why I would not be accepted since that cetegory does not have an editor yet. So I guess I have to wait to ask these questions. That is OK by me.
 
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