Site wiped out

I want to be totally clear that listing a site of mine means nothing to me. I really want to help with ODP and make it better. If banning my url from the directory for life would help me better understand things, and reassure you of the fact that this is not about getting a site listed, then that would be fine with me. I am smart enough to know that having my site listed in DMOZ would increase my monthly revenue by $0.01.

I fear others do not chime in, because they themselves do not have the asnwer. It seems the "rules" are very subjective. I guess it all depends on how the editor feels?

chaz7979 said:

I fear others do not chime in, because they themselves do not have the asnwer.

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Or maybe because the answers are already given (or at least the answers that can be given in public).

chaz7979 said:

It seems the "rules" are very subjective. I guess it all depends on how the editor feels?

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We don't call them "rules" they are "guidelines". Frequently these guidelines are discussed and explained in the internal DMOZ forums when questions are asked by editors (new and experienced alike).

There are quite a lot of aspects which are left up to the editors' discretion (and note the plural on "editors") - we found that a rigid adherance to a strict set of rules does not a better directory make - you will find people who want to "game' the system.

Hence the motto "Humans do it Better".

Yes, we've found that in practice (as anywhere else on earth where you're facing malicious adversaries) "objective" means "arbitrary and easily manipulable by, um, malicious adversaries." In aspects of editing that directly deal with human MA's, a profound unpredictability is an essential part of any conceivable strategy.

aspects which are left up to the editors' discretion (and note the plural on "editors") - we found that a rigid adherance to a strict set of rules does not a better directory make

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If that is the case then how would you explain how to edit to a new applicant? That might be a mute question, because of the fact that I doubt I will be expected, even though I live in this town I applied to.

By the way. I think it is funny that a forum exists where no direct answers can be given. I really hope I am accepted as an editor so I can give mysterious round about answers to unsuspecting people. Not the trolls, the actual normal average everyday guy that is dumbfounded by the answers he/she is given

hutcheson said:

malicious adversaries.

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I know you guys deal with a lot of spam submissions. But I think you maybe think that spam is more than what it is. I bet more then half the submissions you get are just garbage from people who do not know any better, or love their own personal, yet useless site. They are not mostly malicious, just ignorant.

The actual numbers are: approximately 5000-7000 mass-spamming submittals a day (which are certainly malicious!) about 1000-2000 submittals which are spam, (some certainly non-malicious: in specific cases it's hard to tell which are which, not that we care which), and about 1000 that are useful (some submitted for ulterior motives -- not that we know or care one way or another).

The submitters in the first class have systematically studied the ODP for the purpose of causing maximum damage to it. They aren't ignorant. They aren't innocent.

chaz7979 said:

If that is the case then how would you explain how to edit to a new applicant?

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An excellent question!

It's quite simple - read the guidelines and follow them as though they are rules. if you encounter something which seems to go against that, consult with a more experienced editor on the internal editor fora and get a second opinion.

That might be a mute question, because of the fact that I doubt I will be expected, even though I live in this town I applied to.

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Most highly local Regional categories are relatively easy - and there are usually quite a few editors who can help out to give second opinions and support, if asked.

By the way. I think it is funny that a forum exists where no direct answers can be given. I really hope I am accepted as an editor so I can give mysterious round about answers to unsuspecting people. Not the trolls, the actual normal average everyday guy that is dumbfounded by the answers he/she is given

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I'm sorry you don't feel they are direct answers, but they are. It feels like you are asking for a simple set of rules where there aren't any, and then claiming that we are avoiding the question when we can't give them to you.

Alucard said:

I'm sorry you don't feel they are direct answers, but they are. It feels like you are asking for a simple set of rules where there aren't any, and then claiming that we are avoiding the question when we can't give them to you.

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I dont think you arew avoiding it. I am just dicovering that there is no real answer. I think you guys all cleared that up. No avoiding.

hutcheson said:

The actual numbers are: approximately 5000-7000 mass-spamming submittals a day (which are certainly malicious!) about 1000-2000 submittals which are spam, (some certainly non-malicious: in specific cases it's hard to tell which are which, not that we care which)

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I do not understand what the difference betweent the two? Are you saying that 5-7k are people submitting more than 1 url and 1-2k are people submitting just 1? IF that is the case, then that proves my point that 1-2k are not malicious. Maybe it is not half, but its still a bunch of people that are just ignorant, and maybe looking for an answer.

On my site I am use to getting submissions that are spam, and even bots that find their way around my protection. If accepted I am sure I will be able to lend a hand. Here is to hoping I will be good enough for my local city, and then good enough to move on an help in other cats

Good thread guys.
EDIT: or girls

Yes, let's differentiate between these two statements, both of which I've made many times:

(1) Most SUBMITTALS ARE spam.
(2) Many, perhaps even most, SUBMITTERS, are NOT spammers.
(3) We have to prioritize sites based on probabilities; we have to review based on individual merit.
(4) Dealing with submitters is like playing Russian Roulette. Many of them are decent folk -- the vast majority of them are no worse than your typical used car salesman -- but if you deal with more than a few dozen, you WILL meet one of the axe murderers. That basically means don't contact them except in well-lighted places, with police standing by -- because you can't tell ahead of time which ones are wearing fully loaded dynamite suspenders.

So sad that a small few can ruin it for the rest of us on so many levels. I mean this globaly all the way down to "the MOZ"

That's the basic concept of spam: people think they can make a life for themselves out of stealing small slivers of lives from millions of other people. And yeah, each one doesn't hit _me_ that hard -- but all together, they depress the world economy by tens of billions (or hundreds of billions) of dollars a year. And for what? The actual income they take away from this economic vandalization is a tiny fraction of a percent of that!

So sad that a small few can ruin it for the rest of us on so many levels.

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Much like real life

And now for the results of my editor application.....drumrolls.....

"Thank you for your interest in becoming an Open Directory Project editor.
After careful review, we have decided not to approve your application at this time."

Gives up.

I had a site that offered free hosting via subdomain accounts through communityarchitect.com

My site along with some personal sites that were created by free hosting users were wiped out of 'the MOZ' a couple of weeks back. I can see a listing being removed, but how could 6 or 7 deep links all be wiped out when they were in very different sections?

That same week the site was penalized by google becuse free hosting users had created hundreds of spammy redirects, this was a problem with communityarchitect.com

I have since removed the free webhosting that I offered, which is a shame for people who genuinely enjoyed the free service. I have also applied for a reinclusion request for google.

My question is does DMOZ have a reinclusion request process? Also, did google and the moz communicate on the penalty? Or was this the most bizarre coinsidence ever? I had been in google and listed in the MOZ for over 3 years, then I lose listings in both within days of each other?

EDIT: Rest assured I will not mention my webiste URL, I am not sniffing around to find out what happened to my site specifically. I just would like some light to be shed on what may have caused something like this to happen to someone.

Speaking in general-Haven't looked at any urls or editor actions, deeplinks are commonly unreviewed as they usually are not listable. That being said, there are exceptions. There also many other reasons that sites are unreviewed.

chaz7979 said:

My question is does DMOZ have a reinclusion request process?

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There is no automatic relisting if that is what you mean. You can always resuggest the sites for review, and they will be added to the review pool for an editor to look at eventually. It is unlikely that the sites were deleted outright unless they were violating the guidelines in someway. More likely they were moved to unreviewed pending re-evaluation.

chaz7979 said:

Also, did google and the moz communicate on the penalty? Or was this the most bizarre coinsidence ever? I had been in google and listed in the MOZ for over 3 years, then I lose listings in both within days of each other?

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No, Google has nothing to do with dmoz other than using its data and dmoz doesn't impose penalties nor do they communicate with Google or any other third party to make directory listing decisions.

Hope that helps to clarify.

No no no they were not pending review. The were removed. Deep links and all.

My domain had 5-7 links in DMOZ and they were all removed. It was like someone went and searched for the url and wiped it off the face of DMOZ. The links were in such different places in the directory theyu had to have been searched for.

Since I offered free web hosting accounts there were links in places like dog kennels, skateboarding, colors, webmasters. The deep links were all over the place. For them all to be gone on the same day would suggest that someone hunted down the url and removed all instances of it. Could this be editor abuse?

There are several situations which could cause this result.

One would be that a domain had server trouble at the time our link checker came around and so all its listings were automatically removed to unreviewed. If they are placed in unreviewed, they will not be visible on the public side. From your perspective they are gone. From our perspective they are pending re-evaluation.

Another possibility is that the value of the listings has been reconsidered. That process is quite often undertaken by senior editors who can edit throughout the directory. It can happen if a site changes content or if someone notices that the site no longer meets our guidelines (which have become more stringent over the years.)

Thanks for the response.

I would say it is most likely the first of the two scenarios except for the fact that the website is hosted on a dedicated box that I own and run except for the ocassional reboot the server is never down. A reboot lasts maybe 30 seconds. That would be a million to 1 shot.

If it is the later I would understand it if it was my main url. But it was other peoples sub domain websites. That would be like removing goecities.com from dmoz and then removing every single goecity deep link....that does not seem likely to me.