site: www.giftbargains4u.com

pvgool

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Barbi1258 said:
However, the bias way Editors choose to include or exclude sites should be re-evaluated by DMOZ management. IT'S BLATANT DISCRIMINATION to include in your directory sites that sell the same products (which include affiliate links) and at the same time for Editors to decide to exclude others. DMOZ guidelines should apply to all sites and not to selective ones at an Editor's opinion.

The guidelines apply to all.

We look at a site and this one is listed
We look at a second site, it has some of the same products as the first site but it also has some unique products, It will get listed.
etc
We look at the 5th ... 10th .... 20th ...... the more sites we list the more difficult it becomes to find unique content. And we only list unique content.

In some categories unique content is easely to be found on a site in others it is almost impossible. Shopping is such a category where unique content on new sites is very rare.
 

Alucard

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One more comment to add to the excellent advice given so far....

If you believe that a site has been listed that shouldn't be (given the things that have been said in this thread), then we would be very grateful to know about it, and investigate.

We have a thread specifically for this on RZ - in the "Abuse Reporting" forum, you will find a thread called "Report Hijacks, Dead Links & Inappropriate ODP Content Here ONLY". Please post the category and URL(s) that you feel are not approrpiately listed, given the information here, and someone will investigate it.

Thank you.
 

Barbi1258

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I'm glad we're having this discussion. Not that it will change your mind about including my site, but this discussion may help others.

PVpool, when you state this:

We look at a second site, it has some of the same products as the first site but it also has some unique products, It will get listed.

"Unique products" means products that are not already listed or rarely listed on the directory? For example:

I sell Romanian Glassware. In this category, there are only two 2 listings.

I sell Jewish Gifts. In this category, there are substantially a higher number of listings that sell the same products.

Why DMOZ would choose to expand one category versus the other is not clear. It does appear as though 2 sites on a category or for a specific product is limited competition.

Alucard, is there a link for reporting a rude Moderator to the higher-ups and does DMOZ respond to our e-mail or do we need to write to Netscape?

I thank you for this discussion and your feedback. I'm sure it will help others.
 

Alucard

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One thing I need to make clear - this is a private forum provided by ODP editors. It is not officially affiliated with the ODP in any way. Therefore, lodging a complaint to Netscape or the ODP staff would probably not get a response.

You would have to get in touch with one of the moderators on this board if you had an issue with someone's conduct on this board (whether editor or not). You can find a list of them at the bottom of the thread listings in each forum.
 

Barbi1258

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Reporting a moderator to another moderator within the same forum doesn't sound as though it would do any good, since moderators tend to back each other up.

This may be a private forum provided by OPD Editors, but it is also a very public board. It may state on your forum footer that "This site is in no way affiliated with Netscape Communications Corporation", yet on this same private forum's "About Us" page, under "Social Contract" -- it states:

Netscape Communications Corporation hosts and administers the Open Directory Project (ODP), and has discretion over its content, use, and operation as described in the ODP's Terms of Use.

Netscape should be made aware that quite a few of their Moderators and Editors need a much-needed attitude adjustment in the way they respond to others on a status update. It makes you cringe to read some of the responses and it's totally uncalled for.

In any case, I'm moving on and thank you for the input. It has been an unpleasant experience which I don't care to repeat.
 

Barbi1258

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Just thought you might appreciate knowing (to take corrective action) that I have received an enormous number of emails thru my site thanking me for pointing out how rude a few of the DMOZ moderators/editors are. I guess others are intimidated or afraid to speak up in this forum and I voiced their opinion.

Maybe it makes no difference to a few of you, but -- deep down -- there might be those who care about the reputation and integrity of this privately run -- yet so publicly viewed -- editor directory.

Bottom line: it doesn't hurt to be nice to people even in declining a site submission.
 

pvgool

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Barbi1258]Maybe it makes no difference to a few of you said:
-- editor directory.
I think you are missing a important aspect.
On the one site there is DMOZ (aka ODP), a directory for everyone to use.
On the other site there is Resource-Zone, a privatly run forum.
Except for the fact that the people running R-Z are also editors at DMOZ there is no relation between these 2.

Barbi1258 said:
Bottom line: it doesn't hurt to be nice to people even in declining a site submission.
Correct. We will be nice to people who are willing to follow our guidelines. People who don't bother to read or to follow these guidelines will be told so. People who misuse our site or in other ways misbehave (and there are a lot of them, but mostly not visible by the normal people posting here) will be treated in an appropriate way (and that is not a nice way).
 

Barbi1258

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pvgool said:
People who misuse our site or in other ways misbehave (and there are a lot of them, but mostly not visible by the normal people posting here) will be treated in an appropriate way (and that is not a nice way).

Moderators and editors are the first to misuse this site and misbehave and nothing justifies the rudeness. :(

A member asking for further clarification on a submittal denial does not give moderators and editors the right to ditch out one-liner blunt statements or opiniated sarcastic comments (such as Hutchenson's reply to my post), when someone inquires as to further clarificatin.

If you truly do not see the moderator/editor abuse in perusing thru this forum, then quite of you are sincerely clueless as to how to respond to public inquiries.

Again, thanks for the discussion and have a nice day. :)
 

pvgool

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All this is covered in our faq and guidelines

FAQ Why are you people so blunt/rude in your replies?
Sometimes terseness can be mistaken for bluntness - it is, after all, difficult to come up with witty conversation when you are on your twentieth status request in a session. Sometimes there is more going on than can be seen on the board - maybe the user has a history on the forum, or maybe the site itself which has some history in the ODP which has been a source of frustration for editors. You might see "What is the status of www.mynicedomain.org?" get a terse reply and wonder why - what you do not see is that the content on that site is identical to thirty other domains which the user has been submitting once a week to the directory for the past six months. This example is not very far-fetched, either. We try to be as civil as we can be - but some of us have bad days, occasionally. Other things will rile editors - suggestions that bribery is the only way to get a site listed will usually get an extremely curt reply, for example. Most of the ODP editors are very proud of the Social Contract which guides the ODP and feel passionately about it.

Why won't you get into a discussion about why you won't list my site?
Because we have tried it on this forum. It rarely turns into anything constructive. In most cases, website owners know why a site isn't listable, and their protestations on the forum are just an expression of frustration, or turn into a rulebook-style argument which, since the ODP doesn't have rules, will always be futile. We are constantly fine-tuning the information that is given out, in order to help those who truly do not know, but it is a fine line.
 

Paul Falcone

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You go girl!

Barbi1258 thank you. Your thread has finally given me some clues as to why my site has been declined for 7 years. You at least got the courtesy of reasonable responses. I also complained yesterday (see posts for www.guestdiscounts.com ) about the inconsistent and discriminatory nature of this directory and damage these people are doing to businesses like ours. :) Thank you for your courage and saying what's right and wrong so well.
 

Barbi1258

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My gosh Paul, I should start a website and post all the e-mails I have received thanking me for this post -- then -- MAYBE -- the bottom line of what I'm trying to get across would be understood and handled by the management staff of this forum:

When being placed in a position of responding on a very public forum, there never is a justification for being sarcastic, insulting or rude to others. This should be the first thing taught to DMOZ moderators and editors before they are accepted.

I have a forum (www.cutefamilypets.com) at another site and NEVER have any of my moderators been rude to others; they know I won't stand for it. If they are in a bad mood -- it's their problem and asked to let another moderators respond. It would reflect bad on my forum, just as it reflects horribly on this one.

We try to be as civil as we can be - but some of us have bad days, occasionally.

Understandable, but then, in that case, an apology is in order. Hutchenson has poked his nose back in this thread, yet he has not had the decency to apologize for his sarcastic and rude comments towards my "very polite" inquiry.

Pvgool, it's not the rejection that bothered me since this directory won't make or break my site. It was his insulting response. :( :( :( :( I go out of my way to be nice to people and he was downright nasty!

And, I'll say it to him one last time since I've wasted so much energy on this matter already: Shame on you!

Gotta run and process some orders. Take care guys.
 

oneeye

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damage these people are doing to businesses like ours
Hum. No-one is doing anyone's business any damage. You fail to comprehend exactly what DMOZ is. What it isn't is a website listing service. If you get listed it is a bonus, if you don't then nothing gained nothing lost. You don't pay to submit, you don't pay to get reviewed, you don't pay to get listed, and you don't pay to stay listed. All those things and more are available out there on the market provided by the likes of Yahoo and Overture.

We are a project, think of it as an academic project, and our aim is to catalog the best sites we find. Best being defined by us as the participants in the project, entirely at our discretion. We invite suggestions from the public - we'll pick them up at our leisure, or discard them, as we want. Thanks. We make the data we produce available to anyone willing to abide by a few conditions mainly relating to accreditation. Some big players pick up the data - that is entirely their business and they can start or stop whenever they want - there is no obligation either way. So, exactly the same with sites the public suggest, no obligation either way. If you think of it in any other way it will drive you mad with frustration because you will not ever budge editors and the directory as a whole around to your way of viewing their work.

inconsistent and discriminatory nature of this directory
Discriminatory? Maybe, we don't list all sites, only the best examples of each kind. We discriminate against poor quality, lack of content, lack of originality. And we are the arbiters of the criteria. Where we do discriminate heavily is in favour of the sites that stand out head and shoulders above the rest as being innovative in their content - they get listed. For any webmaster, find the best example of a site in the same or similar area of business and better it by a wide margin - that is your target and if you meet it an editor might possibly consider it worth adding.

Inconsistent? Maybe again - volunteers don't get, can't be given, firm direction as to where they should use the spare time they donate freely to the project. So activity ebbs and flows all over the directory. Inconsistent in standards? What you see is a mix of sites added from 6/7 years ago until a few minutes ago. Of course there are poor sites listed - our standards have changed and the general standard of websites in general has changed, individual sites change. With 4 million listings now there will always be legacies of more liberal listing policies, errors, and sites that haven't kept up with the times. From time to time editors purge old rubbish that no longer meets current standards but you should hear the screams from those who lose their listings as a result... Editors are more consistent than ever with the sites added today - they will be of a similar standard to those added yesterday, better than those added a month ago, heaps better than those added years ago. In general. Tens of thousands of editors, hundreds of thousands of categories, millions of sites, you will always get some inconsistencies no matter how hard you try.
 

Barbi1258

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Oct 3, 2004
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Paul Falcone said:
...and damage these people are doing to businesses like ours.

Sorry, but I have to disagree on this point. I sincerely do not feel that being excluded from the directory damages my site in any way, shape or form. It might make a difference on a sale or two I could have had with a link from the directory, but -- strongly impact it? Nahhh....don't think so. Anyone that builds a site and relies on DMOZ Directory exposure (or any other site's exposure) for their sales is off target.

Thank you for your courage and saying what's right and wrong so well.

Your welcome. I just spoke from my heart.

Hugs,
 

oneeye

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I have a forum (www.cutefamilypets.com) at another site and NEVER have any of my moderators been rude to others
There usually isn't any cause to get hot under the collar when discussing cute family pets. People come here, not saying you so don't take it personally, but many if not most, because they have a commercial interest in doing so and they are dealing with unpaid volunteers who edit a non-commercial project. Instant culture clash. They spam us in a myriad of different ways, then come here and politely ask for a status check. They tell outright lies about when they submitted their site and outright lies about their mirrors and multiple submissions. It would be interesting to see whether the attitudes of your moderators might change if faced with similar two-faced activities. But editors, a few of us, still come here. Because we still want to help the rest of the submitters who do follow the guidelines. And sometimes an innocent will get accidentally scalded - it is unfortunate but I can assure you that it is relatively rare. The vast majority that get a "rude" reply are guilty as sin.
 

Barbi1258

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oneeye said:
Hum. No-one is doing anyone's business any damage.

I totally agree with you on this statement.

And sometimes an innocent will get accidentally scalded - it is unfortunate but I can assure you that it is relatively rare. The vast majority that get a "rude" reply are guilty as sin.

Well, I got scalded and didn't deserve it -- and -- it is not relatively rare. Pull up a list of Hutchenson's replies to others and view how many innocent members got blasted by him for his pathetic "ego trip." That hurt! :(

I wish you had initially answered my post, then this thread wouldn't have been necessary. You are easier to talk to. Still, I'm glad I'm venting how I feel because I know I speak for other "innocent" members that were belittled on this forum without provocation and were intimidated or afraid to speak up.
 

oneeye

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it is not relatively rare
It is relatively rare that it happens to an innocent party! ;)

I wish you had initially answered my post, then this thread wouldn't have been necessary. You are easier to talk to.
LOL. On a different day you might well have got the same answer from me - I've used that line more than once. Let me try and explain.

I haven't looked at the site but it is clear you submitted one that to us falls into the bracket of prohibited sites, worse, spam (spam to us that is, according to the way we look at things). We expect people to read the submission guidelines so they don't submit that sort of site. But OK they do. We spend half our editing lives rejecting them from every nook and cranny.

Next the submitter comes here and asks for a status check. What kokopeli gave you was spot on. Don't submit again, but you did. At this point, the site has been rejected, you've been told that, and not to submit again, but you do. An editor has to spend time, their own time for which they're not being paid, removing it over again. At this point patience is wearing a little thin.

We can't tell you the specifics of why the site has been rejected - in our experience that site, and a few thousand others offered by the lurkers in this forum, would probably resurface with the offending specifics well and truly hidden from view under a different URL and we'd face another pile of spam cluttering up the place. So we go as far as pointing you in the general direction of why sites are rejected - most times I won't go that far. I just say "rejected". We expect most savvy webmaster types at this point to realise they have been found out - 99% of them know full well they have submitted a prohibited site and why it is prohibited - they only want to know how we spotted it so they don't make the same mistake next time.

So when someone persists, we are in a bit of a trap. We can't explain specifics of a rejection as I am sure you can understand now. We can only tell them, one way or another, to go away and don't submit the site again. And there isn't really a polite way of saying that. It sounds like you fall into the 1% who didn't actually know that they were committing, in DMOZ terms, a heinous offence for which hanging and quartering is too good a punishment! Most of those who receive a short sharp reply are well aware of what they have done - to them its a game of beat the editor to list the spam. Some fake indignation - it is quite funny sometimes if you can see their record. Then you have the intelligent webmaster, such as yourself, who truly doesn't get it. Truth is we really can't help you to understand, at least not too well, and because of experience we really do have to look on your questions and actions with an awful lot of suspicion. Even if we did want to help you personally to understand, we couldn't because others would use any insights for their own purposes. In private we would have to trust you not to share the information - trust someone who submits what to us is spam? Unlikely!

So if you truly have been misjudged it is regrettable that you think you have been treated unjustly. But I hope you can understand why editors can become impatient and abrupt from time to time.

Now you really can help us if you can suggest a way of saying "go away and don't submit the site again regardless of whether you understand why or not" politely!!! Seriously - if you can think of some words to that effect I am sure editors would consider using them.

Best of luck. :)
 

Barbi1258

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Oct 3, 2004
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oneeye said:
I haven't looked at the site but it is clear you submitted one that to us falls into the bracket of prohibited sites, worse, spam (spam to us that is, according to the way we look at things).

The editors that categorized my site as "spam" stand corrected. My site does not "spam" anything -- in any way, shape or form -- and by you stating this was the decision basis for the exclusion, then that confirms the gross lack of judgment and unfairness in the decision-making process.. You have over 35 sites on your directory that sell gift and collectibles (as does my store) with the same identical line of products. They were NOT classified as spam so it is obvious your classification of my site is grossly mistaken.

Now you really can help us if you can suggest a way of saying "go away and don't submit the site again regardless of whether you understand why or not" politely!!! Seriously - if you can think of some words to that effect I am sure editors would consider using them.

With the type of reasoning and mentality you editors have, no such words exist. Just keep being yourselves. It shows your true colors, and -- in Hutchenson's own words:

That much, I think you can understand.

Time to move on.
 

pvgool

kEditall/kCatmv
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You still don't understand.
Your site is not spam but the suggestion to include the site is.
Our definition of spam: any suggestion for a site that is not listable according to DMOZ guidelines
We don't want these sites. We don't want these suggestions. As with email anything we don't want to receive is classified as spam.
 

Barbi1258

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Oct 3, 2004
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So the suggestion for inclusion of a site (such as mine) worked for the 35+ that are included in the directory, but does not work for others (such a mine). It's neither logical or fair, but I guess that's the judgment style around here.

Thanks for your feedack. Back to work :) Take care.
 
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