Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-(

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

Dmoz created a comprehensive category on the SARS virus before SARS information started coming up for that keyword in Google. Similarly for the Iraq war, the Columbia shuttle disaster etc. etc.

Also remember that the vast majority of listed sites in dmoz don't go out of date within six months - a site dedicated to Elvis Presley is only going to go out of date when he finally turns up in that fast-food restaurant in Wales...

It's not all about processing the unreviewed queue.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

Yes but that must be the exception to the rule going by what spectregunner has said.

Dave

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

If sites are often waiting a year, or more, for inclusions doesn't make the ODP Database content little stale and out dated?

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No, it just means that the directory isn't complete. Last I checked, we haven't stamped a "done" sign on the front page. And sites not being listed has no effect on the quality of the sites that are listed.

There's a difference between being the most comprehensive directory available, and being a completely comprehensive directory. We strive to be the first and it is unrealistic to think there will ever be the second (at least not without significant technology change.)

Is your cup half full or half empty? Mine's half full.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

My post and spectregunner's are perfectly compatible. The thing is, a new, comprehensive and up to date category can be and usually is built rapidly with no input from an unreviewed queue. There's a distinction between how long it takes an average submitted site to be reviewed and how long it takes to create a category on a topical subject because the source of the sites is different.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

I can see it becoming more of an issue though as the WWW grows. I think waiting until the problem becomes patently clear is a mistake, but it's your call.

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Yawn! This is such an old and tired discussion. This same discussion has been going on since the day that the directory went on-line.

That is an issue I have always had, from a submitters point-of-view, i.e it's outright luck as to how long you wait.

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From a webmaster/web site owner/submitter's point-of-view, yes. But from the user and editor's point-of-view it is not an issue. And after all, the directory does not exist to serve the submitters. The submitted sites in the un-reviewed queues are there as a resource to help me populate the directory. There shouldn't be an expectation that the sites there are going to ever be listed.

Again, this is such a tired discussion. Please search through this and all of the other search engine and web directory forums if you want to see how often this discussion has happened in the last 5 years or so. I suspect that you enjoy baiting people to continue this never-ending discussion for your own strange pleasure

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

Yawn! This is such an old and tired discussion. This same discussion has been going on since the day that the directory went on-line.

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Again, this is such a tired discussion. Please search through this and all of the other search engine and web directory forums if you want to see how often this discussion has happened in the last 5 years or so. I suspect that you enjoy baiting people to continue this never-ending discussion for your own strange pleasure

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Oh I see, if the same issue is being raised over and over then there cannot be any problem hey? Well at least not while you have you head firmily shoved in the sand hey

You guys are really amazing! You open a forum with various topics get input from users and submitters then shoot down anyone that tries to help. Let's wait until our house to burns to the ground before worrying about fire insurance. We have have no fires for 5 whole years so why worry?

Trust me, attitudes like yours are VERY BAD for any business.

Let's get this thread locked or deleted hey! Here we go....

Have you ever taken up a suggestion from this board, that doesn't give you (the editor) an advantage?

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

Many suggestions that have been made in these fora have either been implemented or are in the works. Believe it or not, many of the suggestions made here at the resource zone were made in the editor forums long before they came up here.

Editors read what is said here, and we are not homogenous in our opinions. A well-reasoned and persuasive argument that was presented in a constructive way in this forum would certainly be discussed seriously within the editing community.

By the way, giving editors an "advantage" is the only way to actually effect positive change in the directory. You seem to forget that without editors, there would *be* no directory. Things that are done to enable us to work more effectively are also beneficial to our users and submitters as well.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

I apologize for that last post. You have to understand that it is sometimes frustrating having these same conversations about the "evil ODP editors" and how we have bad attitudes.

We started this forum partly to improve our relationship with the public. For the most part I think that we are succeeding with that. But it's an uphill battle, and when we get accused of not paying attention, we get defencive. It's hard not to be defencive about something that you believe in.

Have you ever taken up a suggestion from this board, that doesn't give you (the editor) an advantage?

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Yup Someone suggested that we change the "Add URL" text to "Suggest a URL" and it has now been changed.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

This thread seems to have drifted more than a little from its original purpose. But I guess we can continue on the topic we've drifted to for the moment.

Have you ever taken up a suggestion from this board, that doesn't give you (the editor) an advantage?

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I'm not certain what that has to do with this thread. If there was a suggestion in it, one way or another, I missed it.

The topic here could be one of two things. The problem is submitters tend to see these two things as one.

:arrow_right: First, there the issue of how long it takes to process a submitted site.

This isn't much of an issue for most editors. We don't see our purpose to be keeping up with submissions. This causes some problems and some bad feeling from submitters. I'm sorry it's that way, but the attitude of editors about this issue is unlikely to change.

Since this is a non-existent issue to editors, I don't see ignoring it as "burying our head in the sand".

:arrow_right: Second, how fresh is the data in the directory.

Now that's an issue I could discuss. There are places that could do with some good, honest, hard-working editors who have some time and interest in the topic. One of the most discussed topics inside the directory is how to get and keep these types of editors.

These discussion have improved things over the last couple of years. There is still room for improvement, and we're still working on it.

Beyond that, for about 6 months now we have been undergoing an upgrade in our hardware and software, as I'm sure most everyone is aware. Switching from a one server system to a many server system hasn't been easy, but it's gone much smoother than I would have expected.

Already, I see improvement in how we process sites, growth rate is increasing--I think, no proof of that quite yet, as the upgrade is still ongoing and the faster hardware has only been available for a short time--editors who haven't been active for a while are returning as they hear about the new equipment, etc.

So, in summary, things have improved this last few months as bits and pieces of the upgrades have been completed. Here's why things will improve by leaps and bounds over the next year:
Better equipment means faster, more efficient editing.
Editors who are programmers, such as myself, have access to new resources to produce editor tools, and will soon be able to help develop the software that editors can officially use.
This forum can only increase the understanding between editors and the public, and hopefully encourage some of those good, honest, interested people to persist--even if at first rejected--and become editors.
For the most part, the number of active editors continues to increase. While the number of websites available on the Internet may be increasing, a greater majority of those sites have little or no original content, and the number of categories (that is, topics) which are not well represented with good quality sites will now begin to decrease--there are not that many more topics that don't already have categories created for them, after all.

As always, I personally welcome any idea that might help to improve the directory. But it's a good thing to remember that not everyone will agree on what is actually an improvement.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

>Have you ever taken up a suggestion from this board, that doesn't give you (the editor) an advantage?

No, nor from anywhere else. We're all about making the editing job as easy, hassle-free, and productive as possible. Since editors aren't allowed to take advantage of their privileges to preferentially promote their own sites, we want the cost (in effort and stress) of good work here to be as low as possible, and the rewards (satisfaction in accomplishments) to be as high as possible.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

No, nor from anywhere else

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Thought as much. I wont waste anymore time then.

Dave

Keep in mind:
Our (DMOZ) main task is to list good sites for the general public. We are not here to list sites for webmasters who want to get a good listing with Google.

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How many people ACTUALLY use DMOZ for searching? I think you will find that the % of webmasters / SEO's using DMOZ for their own benefits is alot higher than visitors actually coming along to DMOZ and performing a search.

I have used Google since it was born and to be honest Ive never used the Google directory.. People want speed and unfortunatly DMOZ is not quick!

I hope you see this has constructive critism rather than slagging off DMOZ. All I am trying to say is that if more Editors were accepted more websites would get listed or rejected thus a quicker turn around and newer content.

My category has been the same listings for over 2 years!

I am not sure if you know it or not, but most all of the webmasters/tech people...despise the DMOZ. We only submit to it because it may give a SLIGHT, SLIght, slight edge on Google. But I am sure that you all know this, but most SEO's don't even bother with dMoZ anymore, they submit once and forget about it. Many don't even care to check if the listing gets approved. It has become too much hassle for not enough reward. The common response to questions like this on webmasterworld is....."don't even bother with DMOZ".

The dMoz and its editors have serious issues, and if not addressed in a serious way, the dMoz will be flushed. Take it for what it is worth....but the system is failed.

they submit once and forget about it

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Heaven, I'm in heaven...

the issue is not with the submittal...the submittal is easy and anybody can handle that.

The issue is that there are hundreds of thousands of sites sitting in the queue. SEO's submit because it takes less than 2 mintues. But the fact is that SEO's/Google will flush the dMoZ once one of the other up-and-comers gets a few more listings. I don't fault editors, I fault the direction of Netscape, like anything they touch ---- it turns to copper.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

>But the fact is that SEO's/Google will flush the dMoZ once one of the other up-and-comers gets a few more listings.

"A few"? DMOZ adds thousands daily -- more than twice the rate of Yahoo, which is all alone in second place.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

>How many people ACTUALLY use DMOZ for searching? I think you will find that the % of webmasters / SEO's using DMOZ for their own benefits is alot higher than visitors actually coming along to DMOZ and performing a search.

Find? I've been telling webmasters this for _years_ now. I am delighted that the message is finally sinking in.

>I have used Google since it was born and to be honest Ive never used the Google directory.
Some people don't. Some people do. People who know how to, will be able to find some good content much faster using it. I've discussed search problems with people who would have saved themselves a lot of time and trouble if they _had_ used it.

>People want speed and unfortunatly DMOZ is not quick!
True. The server upgrades are already helping that, for the critical functions. And the "public page" update you're NOT seeing now, you're not seeing because our update systems are being revised to provide the capability of much better public access.

We don't mind constructive criticism, but ... the situation you describe is pretty much what it was designed to be, based on what it needed to be to do what it was designed to do. So I'm not sure what you're proposing we do, or which of our goals we could accomplish better if we did it.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-


I am not referring to Yahoo, which by the way has an excellent directory, but for $299/site annually they should.

I am referring to some of the other start-ups that are operating similar to the dMoz, but in a much more friendly and professional way.

You can't ignore the fact that there is a huge swell of dislike for the dMoz. And not for any other reason than the following....

Month 1.) site submitted.
Month 2.) nothing
Month 3.) nothing
Month 4.) nothing
Month 5.) site resubmitted
Month 6.) nothing
Month 7.) nothing
Month 8.) nothing

to me this is very inefficient. The process must evolve into better dissemination of information and fewer in the queue. tick-tock-tick-tock

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

"efficient" ... "you use that word a lot -- I don't think it means what you think it means."

Long submittal queues or long delays between submittals and review (to express the same basic mathematical fact in two different ways) aren't the problem. They are merely symptoms.

The problem is: spam. That's all. Just spam. Nothing else, not shortage of editors, or slow servers, or anything else on earth.
The queues are long, but the majority of submittals there are futile or malicious or both.
Editors take a long time to review sites, because it takes time and experience to spot the ever-more-devious mechanisms by which spammers hide their tracks.
Editors abandon categories altogether, because of the number of spamming submittals was so high that their work didn't seem productive, and the effort of spotting devious spammers seemed so arduous; the result is that they perceive any effort spent in those areas as "inefficient" -- by the real definition, which is accomplishments divided by effort.

So, in this context, in order to be "constructive", a proposal needs to lead to faster rejection of spam without giving up the qualities that (at this point) only human editing can provide. If, say, we found a good way of nuking SMC/spamworld or Hotelspam or Vspam or Herbaspam sites without even looking, the queues would shrink 10%, editors would be reviewing more sites maybe worth listing, we could use less experienced editors in spam-magnet categories -- who knows, we might even see free elections and accurate social statistics in Cuba.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

Well I guess we have different priorities. Yesteday I got two submissions from webmasters who, could not figure out which letter of the alphabet to submit their site to [or maybe they submitted to all letters just in case] and I had to move them to a different letter, and leave them unreviewed for another editor. Then I had to spend time hunting down someone who quite obviously failed to tell us he had submitted two mirrors of his site. Wasted a lot of other editors time also.

Then I added about 25 sites that no one had submitted, I spend the time hunting down good sites for a category.

[That's not to say I ignore submittals, in many areas I get lots of good ones.]

So now we have three angry SEO/webmasters who don't have their sites in yet. And 25 nice new sites added to the ODP.

I know where my priorities are and I'm quite happy with them - you unfortunatly will not be - no matter what.