Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-(

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

I'm just an editor of a couple of small cats, so what I'm offering here is my personal opinion.

I generally agree with you. It has got to be frustrating for legitimate submitters to see months, and in some cases years, go by without any action being taken on their submissions.

But, if we look at the problem in less general terms, I think that some patterns emerge that are worth looking at.

The biggest backlogs are in certain parts of the directory. Why is that? Generally there are two closely related reasons:
1. Few editors edit there
2. They are buried in spam

The reasons are related because ODP editors, like everyone else in life, tend to want to do things that are enjoybale to them. Hitting a pool of submissions with four or five hundred sites, the vast majority of which are spam, is usually not one of thethings the editors enjoy doing.

If you read through the different discussion threads here, you'll also see some other patterns emerge. The editors who respond to status requests often suggest regional or world categories where they are usually published much faster because there is less spam and the submission pools are much smaller.

You'll also see submitters tell us that they are told by others that they should resubmit every six weeks, or some similar nonsense. You'll see people who believe they are entitled to a listing for every page they have -- partly because they do not understand the difference between a search engine and a directory.

The very fact that you are posting here is a sign of the effort that the editing community is making to try and reach out, to help make the process seem less cloudy, and to try and assist legitimate submitters.

You can help!

Think about the problem, and rather that offering blanket condemnations which do really do anyone any good, give us some solid, constructive ideas on how we can specifically do a better job.

I definitely won't promise that your ideas will be implemented, but I will promise that they wil be read, and if they have merit will be given consideration. I've seen a number of ideas tht have been suggested in this fora result in long, serious discussions. They may or may not have been implemented, and if implemented, the suggester might not recognize their idea, but none of us believe that we know all the answers, and we are certainly willing to listed to toughtful ideas.

So give us your best ideas, and while you are brainstorming, think about things the webmaster SEO community to do to police themselves.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

One of the worst aspects of the dMoz is the huge queue that never goes away....thousands of sites...thousands of pissed off submitters. There is no solution. So i say we just close the doors on the dMoz and call it a day.

Here are a few suggestions:

1.) Provide statistics on cateogories. Why let people submit to queues that will never be reviewed? Tell the submitter that the queue is not actively reviewed.

2.) Expeditiously drop editors who don't review a good number of sites.

3.) Have people who care, review the reviewers.

dMoz needs to step up the reviewal process and push some of the sites through the door. Then use sampling to randomly check the work of the reviewer and provide feedback.

4.) Add a contribution submission: $15 for a guaranteed review in 2 months with a guaranteed acceptance/rejection letter. Any po seo will gladly pay this fee, and pass it onto a client.

there has to be a better way...i don't claim to know what it is exactly. The editors in this forum appear to not be cognizant of the fact that HUGE problems exist, and must be corrected for this endeavor to continue to have value----to anyone.

You all belong to the community who must implement the changes to this system. Instead of fixing what is broke, editors spend hours telling submitters why they are foolish, why they are spamming, and why the dMoz is great.

tick-tock-tick-tock

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem

>> One of the worst aspects of the dMoz is the huge queue that never goes away....thousands of sites...thousands of pissed off submitters. There is no solution. So i say we just close the doors on the dMoz and call it a day. <<

The ODP lists nearly 4 million sites. It isn't going away any time soon. We are building a directory. People can suggest sites for review. That doesn't mean that we have to review them, and having reviewed them, we don't have to list them either. Many categories have been built without a single submission from the outside. Many websites have beed listed without ever having been submitted.


>> 1.) Provide statistics on categories. Why let people submit to queues that will never be reviewed? Tell the submitter that the queue is not actively reviewed.

You can see if a category was recently edited; there is a date at the bottom of every page. However, at present the public side shows data from early June so you will not see any recent edit dates there right now. When the public and edit side are relinked you will suddenly see tens of thousands of edits done behind the scenes in the last 7 weeks, propogate to the public side. Stopping submissions to certain categories will simply mean those people then submit to inappropriate categories. The problem will not go away. That would make things worse.

>> 2.) Expeditiously drop editors who don't review a good number of sites. <<

So, you suggest that dutiful editor in some way out niche category who does 2 edits per month should be booted out, so that there will be no-one there to edit and so no edits will be done? How does that get more work done? It will be yet another category with no listed editor.

>> 3.) Have people who care, review the reviewers. <<

Most editors do care. They might not care about the same things that you do. Submitters and editors have different priorities in that regard. I think this was already covered in several posts above.

>> dMoz needs to step up the reviewal process and push some of the sites through the door. Then use sampling to randomly check the work of the reviewer and provide feedback. <<

There are many people looking at each others work. Peer review happens all the time. The server problems gave a lot of trouble a few months back, but the editing side works better than ever now. Hundreds of thousands of sites are being added per month.



>> there has to be a better way...i don't claim to know what it is exactly. The editors in this forum appear to not be cognizant of the fact that HUGE problems exist, and must be corrected for this endeavor to continue to have value----to anyone. <<

The ODP is continually improved. The internal editors forums are FULL of many ways to improve things. Changes happen all the time. Many more are planned, and many more will be suggested. I don't see a problem with the current directory content.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

1.) Provide statistics on cateogories. Why let people submit to queues that will never be reviewed? Tell the submitter that the queue is not actively reviewed.

Click to expand...

No category is "never reviewed" so telling them that would be a lie. And what would they do if they were told that the category they want is not actively reviewed? Pick another category, a wrong category? Or just not submit at all? Either way, the result is going to be equivalent to if not worse than just submitting to the right category and waiting.

2.) Expeditiously drop editors who don't review a good number of sites.

Click to expand...

What's a good number? Every good edit is a good edit, whether it's made by someone who only makes 10 edits a year or someone who makes 10,000. Why wouldn't we want every good edit we could get? The ODP doesn't force a minimum amount of work out of its volunteers and that isn't going to change.

3.) Have people who care, review the reviewers.
dMoz needs to step up the reviewal process and push some of the sites through the door. Then use sampling to randomly check the work of the reviewer and provide feedback.

Click to expand...

I don't quite follow you here. This is essentially what happens now. Are you advocating slackening standards in order to speed up the process?

4.) Add a contribution submission: $15 for a guaranteed review in 2 months with a guaranteed acceptance/rejection letter. Any po seo will gladly pay this fee, and pass it onto a client.

Click to expand...

That is just not going to happen. The ODP is free and the social contract promises it will remain so.

You're bringing up suggestions that (a) have already been suggested many times before, and (b) for the most part won't/can't be implemented because they are counter to the way the community is run. We're completely aware of the issues surrounding the directory but our priorities will likely never be the same as yours.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

> One of the worst aspects of the dMoz is the huge queue
> that never goes away....thousands of sites...thousands of
> pissed off submitters.

You are partly right about this: the number of unreviewed sites is very large. But once again: reviewing submitted sites is not what the ODP is about. Others have stated this point repeatedly and in better ways so I won't belabour the point.

However, 5000 unreviewed sites taken randomly from the directory don't imply 5000 angry submitters. Many of them come from submitters who don't remember they ever submitted. Very many come from people who think inclusion in a directory would be fun but who don't really care. Many come from editors who found a site somewhere and submitted it to a category they can't edit in themselves. I won't throw numbers around, but I am very certain that only a small minority of the unreviewed submissions have an angry submitter waiting for its inclusion.

> There is no solution. So i say we just close the doors on the dMoz and call it a day.

This is your opinion. You are welcome to it, and I don't think there is any point in debating it.

> 1.) Provide statistics on cateogories. Why let people
> submit to queues that will never be reviewed? Tell the
> submitter that the queue is not actively reviewed.

The problem is that statistics, while always unreliable, will be completely so in this case. An example: today I have been clearing up unrevieweds in a category with a bunch of submissions from quite a long time ago, and a bunch of very new submissions; listing all the listable ones regardless of how long they had been waiting. What kind of statistic would be useful to the submitter of three months ago, of yesterday, and of tomorrow, with regard to that category?

> 2.) Expeditiously drop editors who don't review a good
> number of sites.

That would not be productive, and it would not further the goals of the directory. The question of quotas for editors was discussed here not long ago, in this thread, where the reasons it would not be a good idea are also expounded upon.

> 3.) Have people who care, review the reviewers.

This is an excellent idea, and it is already happening pretty much the way you describe it, too. Except for the fact that the senior editors who review the reviewers are not concerned about the age of the submissions, either.

> 4.) Add a contribution submission: $15 for a guaranteed
> review in 2 months with a guaranteed acceptance/rejection > letter. Any po seo will gladly pay this fee, and pass it > onto a client.

This would make the majority of the current editors, including just about every senior editor, quit the project. I know this, there have been internal discussions and polls on the subject.

> there has to be a better way...i don't claim to know what
> it is exactly. The editors in this forum appear to not be
> cognizant of the fact that HUGE problems exist, and must
> be corrected for this endeavor to continue to have
> value----to anyone.

Not to "anyone". To those who are eager to have their sites listed very quickly.

> Instead of fixing what is broke, editors spend hours
> telling submitters why they are foolish, why they are
> spamming, and why the dMoz is great.

The overwhelming majority of submitters are not foolish. And if we didn't think the ODP was great, we'd be doing a much poorer job of editing
As for why spammers are spamming.... we might as well ask why cats are irrational. If they didn't spam, we would all be immensely less frustrated.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

With each response we hear more of ...

...we won't do that.
...we can't do that.
...we are doing it the right way.
...that won't work.
...that'll never happen.

if there are no major problems with the dMoz, then why are there THOUSANDS of people screaming that it is horrible?

I would say that more than 60% of webmasters have had a negative experience with the dMoz. Can you tell me one organization that displeases 60% of their customers and continues to exist? Do you think that google would exist if 60% of their index customers were unsatisfied? I think not!

tick-tock-tick-tock

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

Do you have any facts in any form to back up those numbers you are quoting?

And doesn't the fact that three people immediately give long, reasoned answers covering every point you mention, tell you that yes, DMOZ editors do care about what the submitters think, and we do want people to see the rationale behind why things are they way they are?

Oh, and did you notice giz saying The ODP is continually improved. The internal editors forums are FULL of many ways to improve things. Changes happen all the time. Many more are planned, and many more will be suggested. ? That is not particularly indicative of a policy of stagnation.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

"I would say that more than 60% of webmasters have had a negative experience with the dMoz. Can you tell me one organization that displeases 60% of their customers and continues to exist?"

You've posted all this without even knowing who dmoz's "customers" are? You should have spent ten minutes doing some research about dmoz before wasting all this space and all the above editors time.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

>I would say that more than 60% of webmasters have had a negative experience with the dMoz. Can you tell me one organization that displeases 60% of their customers....

Ah, I see the problem. You are thinking of other webmasters as ODP customers. That would indeed cause a great deal of misunderstanding, confusion, and frustration!

Because our business model is altogether incompatible with that. Our _distributors_ are the search engines and portals that take our RDF dump, and our _customers_ are the surfers that visit those search engines and portals. We don't offer or provide services to anyone else, and any benefits accrued to anyone else are a mere accidental and unintended by-product of our actual business.

It happens every time: you find someone whom you think is going to slaughter the oppressors and establish social justice, and he turns out to be more interested in sweeping out temples. Makes you just want to crucify him -- even though, had you only been able to figure out ahead of time what was going on, you wouldn't have been adamantly opposed to being able to chat up prospects in the nave without having to tread through all that manure.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

"I would say that more than 60% of webmasters have had a negative experience with the dMoz. Can you tell me one organization that displeases 60% of their customers and continues to exist?"

Click to expand...

:arrow_right: Microsoft? :arrow_left:

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

I know the customers of the dMoz, do you? There are three customers of the dMoz and I argue that the primary customer of the dMoz is the site owner and the web sufer. Apparently you belive it to be, well lets say google. Google merely utilizes the "free" odp data dump, which is readily available to anyone, anywhere. For the sake of Google, this information is used because it is free, and it does not take google resources to acquire or implement the directory or its structure. The directory as far as google is concerned is non-relevant, and can be exchanged for any directory listing. Googles core business has nothing to do with this directory or any directory for that matter.

With hundreds of thousands of sites sitting idle in the queue, can you please explain to me exactly which customers are recieving any type of value ( not necessarily monetary value. )

tick-tock-tick-tock

Re: Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

> With hundreds of thousands of sites sitting idle in the queue, can you please explain to me exactly which customers are recieving any type of value

That would be the web surfer who has access to the millions of sites that are listed.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

Can you tell me one organization that displeases 60% of their customers and continues to exist?

Click to expand...

I don't believe you will ever be able to understand our answers or participate in an intelligent discussion about the Open Directory as long as you believe webmasters and submitters are our "customers".

First, we have no customers. No one pays us, we do not provide a service. We most certainly do not provide promotion services to webmasters.

Second, the closest we get to customers are users of the data, who get the data for free, with the exception of AOL, who pays the bills. AOL representatives who have ever commented on the subject have said the ODP will be used by them for a very long time, and since they have just recently invested the money for quite a few new servers and had the tech staff put in quite a bit of time re-designing the system, I think we can be confident we'll be around for a while.

So, dmoz.org will remain as it is, with the goal of building a directory whether that's from submitted sites or searching for sites through other means. We will continue to list sites based on the guidelines we've developed which will continue to make people who own sites that don't meet those guidelines angry.

We will continue to list sites in the quickest possible way using the techniques we've developed, but we will not consider the processing of submitted sites to be our number one priority. We will continue to improve those techniques though we will do this according to our needs and not how this will impact the webmasters who submit to us.

We will always welcome suggestions to improve the directory, but when a suggestion will not improve the directory we will tell you why. And that should be the end of the subject; move on to something more productive.

Want to make a suggestion that will help webmasters? Suggest a way to get those webmaster to read the submission guidelines that they actually have to page through to submit--to read them, understand them, submit an acceptable title and description, and submit the site into the correct category.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

....last word...... !

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

>There are three customers of the dMoz and I argue that the primary customer of the dMoz is the site owner and the web sufer.

How many site owners do we have to dissatisfy to get OUT of the site-owner-services businesses? Can you suggest good ways to do that? Please help, this is urgent! Because we need out as quickly as possible, so we can focus on websurfers.

Re: Submission Help Needed: 6 month old problem :-

sorry .... was done...but had to reply.

so where is any of this internet stuff without the site owner?????????

Just a bunch of ip addresses?

I think that we addressed the original topic of this thread, and that this thread has drifted way off course. I'm not sure that we're having any productive discussion here, just rehashing old issues. This is not the place to discuss the pros and cons of the ODP. Unless anyone objects (send me a PM if you object), I'm going to close this thread. Feel free to start a new thread if you think that there is a need to discuss these issues.