Responding to Submitters
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spectregunner
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But you are doing a bit of 'bait and switch" here since we all know I was specifically talking about taking a quiz, and what editors consider when evaluating sites.
Please be kind enough not to twist my words, or to try and make this personal.
bobrat
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Since at times there have been suggestions by many that shutting off submissions entirely should be considered, then I don't think it's preposterous to consider limiting those submissions to try and eliminate the badly placed sites.
Having just moved several hundred sites that were not in English - many of which had been sitting around for a long time, I think it's worth doing something to eliminate that. Nobody wins when those sites sit around in the wrong category, the submitter lost out, by sending his site to the wong place, the users of ODP lost, when those sites might have had the chance to be reviewed and published earlier.
I'm not suggesting an intelligence test, just some basic guarantee that they have some understanding of the guidelines.
Right now the submission form says:
Please take a moment to review some of our submission policies and instructions. It is important that you understand these policies. Failure to understand and follow these policies generally will result in the rejection of a submission.
But I bet almost no-one clicks on that blue link
As a simple approach change the submission form to have a bunch of check boxes realting to basic rules which must be clicked.
e.g on English categories have [ ] My site in English
Having just moved several hundred sites that were not in English - many of which had been sitting around for a long time, I think it's worth doing something to eliminate that. Nobody wins when those sites sit around in the wrong category, the submitter lost out, by sending his site to the wong place, the users of ODP lost, when those sites might have had the chance to be reviewed and published earlier.
I'm not suggesting an intelligence test, just some basic guarantee that they have some understanding of the guidelines.
Right now the submission form says:
Please take a moment to review some of our submission policies and instructions. It is important that you understand these policies. Failure to understand and follow these policies generally will result in the rejection of a submission.
But I bet almost no-one clicks on that blue link
As a simple approach change the submission form to have a bunch of check boxes realting to basic rules which must be clicked.
e.g on English categories have [ ] My site in English
dogbows
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I like the check boxes better! And I had even thought about suggesting that in place of the quiz. However, the fear of having my opinion labeled as preposterous again, prevented my doing that. Hint! Joke! 
The truth of the matter is that almost all submitters whether they read the guidelines and policies or not, do not really understand the nature of the ODP. The check boxes would at least insure that they understand some of the basics. And possibly resolve some of their misconceptions of how ODP works.
The truth of the matter is that almost all submitters whether they read the guidelines and policies or not, do not really understand the nature of the ODP. The check boxes would at least insure that they understand some of the basics. And possibly resolve some of their misconceptions of how ODP works.
Actually, the second quote doesn't say you have to be smart in order to submit. And the first quote doesn't say that not reading the guidelines *will* result in your submission being rejected (nor does it say that it requires "smarts" to be able to read the guidelines).
It has never been a seriously considered suggestion -- and staff has point blank said it won't happen.
longcall911
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Since I’m not familiar with the ‘social contract’ clearly I have no opinion there. What I can tell you all, is that I would not last a day as an editor. I’d be so ticked off, you’d have to scrape me off the ceiling before showing me the door.
For those who say a quiz is extreme and insulting, I can tell you that as a submitter who has a fairly clear idea as to the value of the ODP, I’d do a quiz in a heartbeat.
To submit my little NY Rangers Fan Club at www.zeal.com, I had to become a member. Then I had to read their guidelines, which are similar to DMOZ's. Then I had to take a real test. There were 20 questions. I had to choose ‘which is the real title for this site’ by looking at a thumbnail. Most questions were worthy of an editor’s test, not some dopey guy like me who wanted to get his not-for-profit, lots of work for no reward, website in their directory.
I took the test 3 times, scoring 75%, 80% and then 90%. You have to land 90% for the privilege of submitting. Your first 10 submissions are then reviewed by an editor who then gives you feedback on what you missed. If you get 10 listed, then you become a ‘zealot’ which means you can add sites with 'less' approval.
That is definitely extreme. {IMHO}
Here, we are discussing a simple quiz just to be sure submitters understand the process. The technology is easy to implement. It’s a plain old html form that posts to a little script. If question1 = ‘yes’ then score = score + 1.
As for other languages, I can't imagine it being too difficult to translate a brief quiz.
The bottom line is that the ODP shows up on hundreds of websites. Google counts many of those listings as links. Lot’s of links boost your Google position, and nearly everyone wants position on Google. If ODP is so valuable to me, I certainly don’t mind taking a quiz to prove that I understand the most basic rules. I don’t even have to ace the quiz. I just have to pass.
For those who say a quiz is extreme and insulting, I can tell you that as a submitter who has a fairly clear idea as to the value of the ODP, I’d do a quiz in a heartbeat.
To submit my little NY Rangers Fan Club at www.zeal.com, I had to become a member. Then I had to read their guidelines, which are similar to DMOZ's. Then I had to take a real test. There were 20 questions. I had to choose ‘which is the real title for this site’ by looking at a thumbnail. Most questions were worthy of an editor’s test, not some dopey guy like me who wanted to get his not-for-profit, lots of work for no reward, website in their directory.
I took the test 3 times, scoring 75%, 80% and then 90%. You have to land 90% for the privilege of submitting. Your first 10 submissions are then reviewed by an editor who then gives you feedback on what you missed. If you get 10 listed, then you become a ‘zealot’ which means you can add sites with 'less' approval.
That is definitely extreme. {IMHO}
Here, we are discussing a simple quiz just to be sure submitters understand the process. The technology is easy to implement. It’s a plain old html form that posts to a little script. If question1 = ‘yes’ then score = score + 1.
As for other languages, I can't imagine it being too difficult to translate a brief quiz.
The bottom line is that the ODP shows up on hundreds of websites. Google counts many of those listings as links. Lot’s of links boost your Google position, and nearly everyone wants position on Google. If ODP is so valuable to me, I certainly don’t mind taking a quiz to prove that I understand the most basic rules. I don’t even have to ace the quiz. I just have to pass.
longcall911
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justobserving]I expect that it would said:
Well put. . .
W
wrathchild
It's available to the public. http://dmoz.org/socialcontract.htmllongcall911 said:
I generally don't favor barriers to submission because as a general rule, they disproportionally affect people who only submit once.
From the perspective of this editor, it's not people who don't understand the submission process who are the problem. It's the people who understand it well enough to game it who make editing hard. Our technical resources should be directed toward fighting this scourge (and they are.)
Now, I think the idea of encouraging people who make multiple submission on behalf of others to take some kind of test may have merit. However, for the one-off submitter, suggesting a site should be as easy as we can possibly make it.
Overall the proposed quiz (placed as a barrier to submission) creates a lot more problems then it solves in my view.
Bobrat, have you thought about adding a little quiz to your dummies guide? ...a self-check kind of thing. I think that would be pretty spiffy.
From the perspective of this editor, it's not people who don't understand the submission process who are the problem. It's the people who understand it well enough to game it who make editing hard. Our technical resources should be directed toward fighting this scourge (and they are.)
Now, I think the idea of encouraging people who make multiple submission on behalf of others to take some kind of test may have merit. However, for the one-off submitter, suggesting a site should be as easy as we can possibly make it.
Overall the proposed quiz (placed as a barrier to submission) creates a lot more problems then it solves in my view.
Bobrat, have you thought about adding a little quiz to your dummies guide? ...a self-check kind of thing. I think that would be pretty spiffy.
justobserving
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To any who feel a previous post by me was personal, please be assured that was not my intent. I also apologize for any comments that appeared to be "twisting of someone else's words." My comments were (are) meant to be of a general nature related to the discussion as a whole.
It would be a bit of a stretch to categorize the sample questions I listed as a "quiz." I was careful to state that the answers would be contained in the preceding text. The submitter would not be required to research the purpose of the ODP, nor navigate to FAQs, policies, guidelines or mission statement pages to proceed. This would simply confirm that the submitter had in fact read the statements, and would be a measure of neither intelligence nor test-taking ability.
So, in that sense, I wholly agree with those who stated their opposition to a quiz, or voiced the opinion that a quiz would be preposterous (in the extreme or otherwise).
As to the spirit of the social contract - http://dmoz.org/socialcontract.html - the emphasis of that document is heavily weighted toward keeping the ODP free and building a high quality and comprehensive directory. In particular:
It would be a bit of a stretch to categorize the sample questions I listed as a "quiz." I was careful to state that the answers would be contained in the preceding text. The submitter would not be required to research the purpose of the ODP, nor navigate to FAQs, policies, guidelines or mission statement pages to proceed. This would simply confirm that the submitter had in fact read the statements, and would be a measure of neither intelligence nor test-taking ability.
So, in that sense, I wholly agree with those who stated their opposition to a quiz, or voiced the opinion that a quiz would be preposterous (in the extreme or otherwise).
As to the spirit of the social contract - http://dmoz.org/socialcontract.html - the emphasis of that document is heavily weighted toward keeping the ODP free and building a high quality and comprehensive directory. In particular:
The only line I can find that indicates support for the URL submitter (other than stating that the submission process is free) is in section 2:
That sounds great, until one views it in context:
Rather than contravening the social contract, adding a validation mechanism to the URL suggestion process could easily be construed as being within the realm of making "every effort to build a high quality and comprehensive directory."
The reason those lines in the social contract are written the way they are is that the primary purpose of the submission process is to give the general browsing public a way to let us know about interesting and useful sites they find. If I could figure out a way to prevent anyone from submitting a site they were in any way affiliated with, I would suggest doing so and I suspect I would get a lot of support from other editors on the issue.
Sadly, that's impossible. There is no way we could ever enforce a "no vested interest" policy on submitters. So, I don't suggest trying to do so.
But the target audience of the submission process (and the directory) is still the general browsing public. If Joe Surfer finds a site that should be listed, I don't want to make it in any way difficult for him to let us know about it.
Sadly, that's impossible. There is no way we could ever enforce a "no vested interest" policy on submitters. So, I don't suggest trying to do so.
But the target audience of the submission process (and the directory) is still the general browsing public. If Joe Surfer finds a site that should be listed, I don't want to make it in any way difficult for him to let us know about it.
justobserving
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This is not meant as a personal attack, so please do not take it that way...
I fail to see how preventing Bob Smith from submitting his Bob and Mary Smith's Family Website would in any way help to build a high quality and comprehensive web directory. For that matter, preventing Bob Smith of Bob Smith's Auto Parts from submitting his site would also be contrary to the stated goals of the ODP.
The original post in this thread (albeit from someone who was obviously frustrated and could have phrased his comments in a rather more tactful manner) was regarding the lack of response to submitters. He also suggested that:
The further comments were not intended to throw up road-blocks, or to make it "difficult" for Joe Surfer to suggest a URL. Requiring Joe Surfer to read a couple of straight-forward informational paragraphs prior to submitting a site does not seem unreasonable, and (in my opinion) it is a bit of a stretch to say that he would then find the process to be difficult.
In fact, as I mentioned previously, this would inhibit automated submission attempts as well as reducing the editors' workload, thus making it easier for Joe Surfer's suggested web site to be reviewed and (if appropriate) included in the directory.
I fail to see how preventing Bob Smith from submitting his Bob and Mary Smith's Family Website would in any way help to build a high quality and comprehensive web directory. For that matter, preventing Bob Smith of Bob Smith's Auto Parts from submitting his site would also be contrary to the stated goals of the ODP.
The original post in this thread (albeit from someone who was obviously frustrated and could have phrased his comments in a rather more tactful manner) was regarding the lack of response to submitters. He also suggested that:
My comments were an attempt to expound on that suggestion: be a bit more upfront and honest with the submitter regarding the review process, and the potentially long wait time.
The further comments were not intended to throw up road-blocks, or to make it "difficult" for Joe Surfer to suggest a URL. Requiring Joe Surfer to read a couple of straight-forward informational paragraphs prior to submitting a site does not seem unreasonable, and (in my opinion) it is a bit of a stretch to say that he would then find the process to be difficult.
In fact, as I mentioned previously, this would inhibit automated submission attempts as well as reducing the editors' workload, thus making it easier for Joe Surfer's suggested web site to be reviewed and (if appropriate) included in the directory.
longcall911
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I’ve now read the Social Contract and the highlights in this thread, and quite honestly, I don’t see anything that would conflict with the notion of having people prove that they have read and understand the submission guidelines and procedure for checking status.
I feel the ‘quiz’ could be as simple as three questions (in keeping with Monty Python’s Search for Holy Grail… the Bridge of Death. . . answer me these questions three!)Seriously, three questions:
Which one of these statements is not true?
1. Do not submit mirror sites or duplicate content.
2. Do not submit the same URL more than once.
3. Do not submit any site redirects to another address.
4. Do not submit sites that are under construction.
5. Do not submit sites consisting largely of affiliate links.
6. Do not submit to the most relevant category, any one is fine.
Which one of these statements is not true?
1. It can possibly take several moths before your submission is reviewed.
2. All submissions are accepted.
3. Multiple submissions of the same or related sites may result in the exclusion and/or deletion of those and all affiliated sites.
4. Editors have sole discretion as to what sites are accepted and what category they will be listed in.
5. You will not receive confirmation of your submission.
6. You will not receive notice of your submission’s acceptance, or rejection.
Which one of these statements is not true?
1. Once you have submitted a site, you must wait one month before requesting a status check.
2. The only place to check the status is the ODP forum.
3. When posting a message in the forum, you must adhere to guidelines as posted in the forum.
4. If you have waited the one month and are then told that your site is waiting review, you must wait six more moths before you can request another status check.
5. ODP editors are all volunteers, and have many responsibilities other than reviewing submissions.
6. As long as you submit to the ODP, regardless of acceptance or rejection, you will automatically be indexed by all of the major search engines.
As, I’ve stated before, I don’t think it is unreasonable to have people prove that they understand the rules before submitting. Maybe 2 out of 3 correct gets you to the submission form.
Here’s the issue as I see it. Forgive me for being bold, and blunt. DMOZ has guidelines and procedures that are very clear, very well written, and rarely read. The result is that a lot of garbage gets into the system. And so who gets to take out the garbage? Editors do. These are people who are volunteering their time for a very noble cause. It simply does not seem fair to ask them to police the system to the extent they do.
As the internet grows exponentially, so will the problem. By making certain that people at least have a basic understanding that the ODP is not a site submission service that automatically summits to hundreds of search engines including Google, Yahoo, MSN, Netscape and AOL you may stand a chance in the ongoing battle.
Thanks for listening to my rant.
BTW: I have no vested interest in a quiz or not. I’m just a DMOZ user who has recently acquired a dose of respect for the Project.
I feel the ‘quiz’ could be as simple as three questions (in keeping with Monty Python’s Search for Holy Grail… the Bridge of Death. . . answer me these questions three!)Seriously, three questions:
Which one of these statements is not true?
1. Do not submit mirror sites or duplicate content.
2. Do not submit the same URL more than once.
3. Do not submit any site redirects to another address.
4. Do not submit sites that are under construction.
5. Do not submit sites consisting largely of affiliate links.
6. Do not submit to the most relevant category, any one is fine.
Which one of these statements is not true?
1. It can possibly take several moths before your submission is reviewed.
2. All submissions are accepted.
3. Multiple submissions of the same or related sites may result in the exclusion and/or deletion of those and all affiliated sites.
4. Editors have sole discretion as to what sites are accepted and what category they will be listed in.
5. You will not receive confirmation of your submission.
6. You will not receive notice of your submission’s acceptance, or rejection.
Which one of these statements is not true?
1. Once you have submitted a site, you must wait one month before requesting a status check.
2. The only place to check the status is the ODP forum.
3. When posting a message in the forum, you must adhere to guidelines as posted in the forum.
4. If you have waited the one month and are then told that your site is waiting review, you must wait six more moths before you can request another status check.
5. ODP editors are all volunteers, and have many responsibilities other than reviewing submissions.
6. As long as you submit to the ODP, regardless of acceptance or rejection, you will automatically be indexed by all of the major search engines.
As, I’ve stated before, I don’t think it is unreasonable to have people prove that they understand the rules before submitting. Maybe 2 out of 3 correct gets you to the submission form.
Here’s the issue as I see it. Forgive me for being bold, and blunt. DMOZ has guidelines and procedures that are very clear, very well written, and rarely read. The result is that a lot of garbage gets into the system. And so who gets to take out the garbage? Editors do. These are people who are volunteering their time for a very noble cause. It simply does not seem fair to ask them to police the system to the extent they do.
As the internet grows exponentially, so will the problem. By making certain that people at least have a basic understanding that the ODP is not a site submission service that automatically summits to hundreds of search engines including Google, Yahoo, MSN, Netscape and AOL you may stand a chance in the ongoing battle.
Thanks for listening to my rant.
BTW: I have no vested interest in a quiz or not. I’m just a DMOZ user who has recently acquired a dose of respect for the Project.
bobrat
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Can I use your samples [maybe changed somewhat] in http://dummies-guide-to-dmoz.org/the_submitter_quiz.htm [this is NOT an official ODP or approved site, just me playing around]
longcall911
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of course. . .
longcall911 said:
#1 and #4 are forum rule questions, which seem inappropriate for rules to submission to ODP, although they may be appropriate for posting in these forums. (Fora.)
On the other hand, I've lost track of whether this quiz was intended for forum posters or for ODP submitters....
(An attempt to provide some seriousness to the proceedings, as it's been made clear that there will not be quizzes attached to ODP submissions; that there probably will not be quizzes attached to forum submissions, although it's up the Wizard; and this quiz is certainly appropriate as part of a forum FAQ set.)
justobserving
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What are your thoughts on a couple of questions to verify that the submitter has read a brief notice, as opposed to a "quiz" (as I have suggested)?
I have been surprised by the strong opposition to a suggestion that would almost certainly improve the directory.