Why can't I have feedback on my rejected site?

caspro

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Aug 24, 2004
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8
nareau said:
And as a follow-up question: Is there *anyone* these submitters can turn to with their questions? IE, are there any SEOs or savvy web-design companies who can read the guidelines to the submitter and explain them word by word? If not, I suspect somebody could make a *lot* of money by explaining the word "affiliate" to people.

Nareau

AFFILIATE from Dictionary
v. / 'flet/ usu. be affiliated to/with officially attach or connect to an organization. →(of an organization) admit as a member.
n. / 'flt/ an affiliated person or organization.
- DERIVATIVES affiliation n. affiliative adj.
- ORIGIN C18: from med. L. affiliat-, affiliare 'adopt as a son'

Sorry I just couldn't resist it :D
 

hutcheson

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caspro, in my country you make a lot of money by telling people what they want to hear, not by telling them the truth.

I personally don't have a problem with non-editors commenting on sites in general. I do have a problem with what it's likely to lead to -- that is, editors who are new to RZ commenting; or the "diss my baby, feel my wrath" responses from webmasters. If you want to PM a webmaster, I don't see how that could be a problem, though.
 

jjwill

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422
hutcheson said:
I personally don't have a problem with non-editors commenting on sites in general. I do have a problem with what it's likely to lead to -- that is, editors who are new to RZ commenting; or the "diss my baby, feel my wrath" responses from webmasters.

AMEN!

I do understand how nareau feels.
"Oh, oh, oh, I know the answer to that one. Pick me, pick me."

I often want to tell the poor fools to stay away from this or that mistake or say "you obviously have not read the guidelines and are in violation of 4 of them and those 3 URLs will never be added." then disclaimer.

But, I know I have not been around long enough to justify an open response nor do I have a true editor’s perspective. I'm just learning.

But it sounds fun. :D

2 recommendations that I see in this thread and like are;

1. Make the guidelines initially more attractive and less complicated with links to more in-depth content.
2. Editors response: Radio button menu that only lists the subject(s) in which the url is in violation. Add a disclaimer that there will not be any further discussion of the matter. But at least the webmaster has a starting point.

OK, now you can pick them apart.
 

arubin

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Mar 8, 2004
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luggagebase said:
2 recommendations that I see in this thread and like are;

1. Make the guidelines initially more attractive and less complicated with links to more in-depth content.
2. Editors response: Radio button menu that only lists the subject(s) in which the url is in violation. Add a disclaimer that there will not be any further discussion of the matter. But at least the webmaster has a starting point.

1. You're welcome to attempt to rewrite them.

2. I think this has been rejected in the past. Spammers would slightly modify their site so as to bypass that problem, leaving the others. The major problem with most sites is insufficient unique content.
 

jjwill

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422
arubin said:
1. You're welcome to attempt to rewrite them.

2. I think this has been rejected in the past. Spammers would slightly modify their site so as to bypass that problem, leaving the others. The major problem with most sites is insufficient unique content.

1. Ya, ya, who has the time. Actually, I'm not a very good writer so I wouldn't attempt it, but I know several of you out there are. Besides, I don't think it is about re-writing as much as re-organizing and adding some eye catching graphics (I know, graphics is an ODP heresy but it helps people from skimming as much.)

2. Even if it’s just the basic subject in question? If only a slight modification is needed then what's wrong with that. Either the site has merit or it doesn't.
If its major content needed, then they need to do the work. I don't think you wouldn't get specific enough that slight modification would remedy. Maybe I'm way off, but if most are content issues, then let’s say so and let the webmaster figure out how to add unique content thus making the site valuable. I've also seen threads where ODP Admin has given details to a webmaster on how to improve there site. I know that is not the purpose of the ODP, but it goes on. Yes it is easier to give no response but are we addressing an issue of how to make ODP listing more valuable and abundant or is it just about processing? Or both?

Sorry for long answer
:eek:
 

arubin

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I suppose an additional VBCode entry could be created, stating:
The suggestion has been rejected for insufficient unique content. Please do not resubmit unless a significant amount of unique content is added.
in addition to our current
[r]xxxxx[/r]
 

hutcheson

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There are two issues. Nearly all the time the problem with a site is "no unique content", and that's an end of it. There's nothing that can be done. There is the secondary reason that for deceptive submittals we don't WANT to tell people HOW we found out their content was duplicate -- and there's no point anyway, as they know where they got it from. (In summary: it's useless, it's harmful, and it's painful. So we don't.)

Very very occasionally there's an issue that can be addressed. It doesn't happen more than 1/2 of 1% of the time for rejected submittals, and when it happens, someone will usually pass a hint. (It happens so seldom, that in the larger scheme of things we really don't need a procedure for it. But editors will often be helpful where help matters.

Remember, we don't need to coach people to make ODP listings more abundant or more valuable. All we have to do is review more of the good sites, and waste less time on the bad ones.
 

nareau

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Apr 26, 2004
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On the whole "unique content" issue: It seems like the editors consider this a pretty black and white thing. But I've seen a lot of people who don't think it is, especially for retail sites.

The basic argument I see from submitters is: "Well, Amazon.com basically sells the same stuff I can get anywhere! So how is their site any different from my Amway site?!?!" And while Amway is a classic and clear example of affiliate sites, the argument has some truth to it.

So I guess I'm asking to hear, as explicitly as you can state it, what unique content Amazon.com has that allows them to be listed. Is it the way they present their items for sale? Is it the variety of things you can buy? Is it unique because it's a unique combination? Inquiring minds want to know!

And, as a follow-up: could one of the inflatable furniture affiliates start selling fancy air-pumps and patch kits, thus standing out from the rest, and get listed that way? How unique is unique?

Nareau
 

bobrat

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One analogy you might make is we list Hewlett-Packard as a computer vendor. We don't list a site for each of their sales staff.

Likewise we list Amazon as a book seller, we don't list Amazon affiliates since all they are doing is acting as sales staff for Amazon. They hold no stock, they do no shipping. [If on the other hand, the site without the affiliate ads provided content, it could be listed]

We we do list other book sellers who actually sell and ship books.

But we would not list [in the books category] a newspaper that carried an ad for the bookstore.
 

jtbell

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Feb 1, 2003
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bobrat said:
One analogy you might make is we list Hewlett-Packard as a computer vendor. We don't list a site for each of their sales staff.

Or, a bit closer to nareau's original Amazon example: You probably list borders.com and bn.com (Barnes & Noble), but if their individual bricks-n-mortar stores had Web sites, you wouldn't list them, right?
 
G

gimmster

if their individual bricks-n-mortar stores had Web sites, you wouldn't list them, right?
Actually we would, but in the actual physical location of the store, and only if the site contained content about the physical presence (more than just an address).

If it was just a copy of the online store with their local address - probably not.

If it included photos of the store, staff, opening hours, a location map, information on local reading clubs, local sports teams they sponsor, or any amount of other locality specific information, we would list it in the Regional branch of the directory, in the smallest geographic category that encompasses all physical locations mentioned on the site - usually at the Locality level.

Note there are different requirements for listability between the Topical and Regional trees. Topical is primarily interested in grouping like sites together by topic, Regional groups sites primarily by community which usually translates to location.
 

nareau

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And another thing about feedback...

Keep in mind that a lot of people submi...suggesting sites are people like me: the website guy for their company. They get a lot of pressure from the boss to "make us show up in the search engines!" And however much you might not like it, a DMOZ listing does indeed impact Google's results.

Nareau
 

pvgool

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nareau said:
And however much you might not like it, a DMOZ listing does indeed impact Google's results.
It is not so much that we don't like it. We just don't care about the influence we have on Google or any other serach engine.
 

jjwill

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pvgool said:
It is not so much that we don't like it. We just don't care about the influence we have on Google or any other serach engine.


Now this is where I think that a lot of new members or submitters (webmasters) get the wrong impression. They take a statement like this and twist it all up to say:
“I’m an editor and don’t care about you and your wimpy, content deprived website. I really don’t care if you succeed in life or not.” Then the webmaster comes back with:
"Why are the ODP editors so arrogant?" They really don't care about people and the web community, just their little click of editors and ODP friends."

On the contrary, the ODP is not self-serving and people like pvgool spend countless hours serving the web community. I have a site I've been trying to get listed for the past 2 years(I’m sure you can't figure what it's called), yet I know that the ODP is not hear to advance my proprietary cause. The ODP is here to provide a high quality of listings to the web community. If Google finds value in that and wants to use it, then great, the ODP does not care. It is not the responsibility of the editors that you put yourself in a position to be pressured by your client. I could only imagine that editors are tired of people trying to put that burden on them and being labeled "insensitive S.O.B's" when they are just regular people trying to help. :) Beside, I know for a fact that many of them take extra time (which they rarely can afford) to help webmasters who are clueless like me get out of trouble or give a little guidance to avoid some common pitfalls. It’s not that they don’t care about people’s success; it’s just not their purpose in this setting. (Please, pvgool and any other editor (admin), correct me if I’m wrong.) :D

I hope that helps some new comers.
__________________________________________________
I do not represent the ODP and these thoughts are purely my own. I could be entirely wrong on every point.
 

nareau

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pvgool said:
It is not so much that we don't like it. We just don't care about the influence we have on Google or any other serach engine.
My apologies for making that assumption. I was thinking along the lines of, "Since DMOZ listings have a large impact on Google's results, spammers target DMOZ highly. And the editors seem to dislike spam."

Nareau
 

longcall911

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Jun 13, 2004
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There may be another factor that results in the ‘why can't I have feedback’ question.

It seems to me (and I certainly could be wrong) that the bar has been raised over the years. The mantra today is that ‘unique content’ is required in order to be accepted by ODP. While few would argue that unique content *shouldn't* be required, it does not seem to me that it always has been.

I think that many of us could site examples of categories containing nothing more than a bunch of commercial sites, all of which are quite similar, and few being a slam dunk ‘unique’. Most of these commercial sites were listed years ago. Many have things like hidden text, stuffed alt tags, mirror sites, and sometimes multiple ODP listings.

So now comes a new commercial site owner, hopeful of being listed for competitive reasons. Even though his site may be ‘clean’ and even though he may have *some* unique content, he may not have enough to be listed. He then looks at his category and asks, “how can it be that these others are listed, and I have been rejected?”

And so I think the ‘why can't I have feedback’ question may in fact be a “please explain the injustice” request. Of course the explanation is often, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder” or “we really don’t care about commercial sites”.

But, the appearance is that the ODP tends to leave the current listings in place, even though they probably would not be accepted based on today's unique content standard. So, it would be interesting to know whether the bar has in fact been raised, or this is merely perceived.

If it is nothing more than an inaccurate perception, then it would be interesting to find out how broad based it might be, and how to dispel it.
 

gboisseau

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I can not speak for other ODP editors, but I can speak for myself.

I strive to visit all of the sites in my categories to assure that they are still listable. Those that are severely out of compliance, or belong in other categories are dealt with.

An ODP editors' jobs is not only to review and list new sites. We also check our existing listings, tweak the descriptions (removing hype, etc.), and where necessary - make changes. As for "dead" sites, our automatic url testers only pick up a portion of them. The only way for us to catch them is either by the visits, or by reports in the forums.

Yes, the ODP bar is raised, as it should be. We pride ourselves on being the best human edited directory on the internet. There are a lot of sites out there - and a good share of them do not / will not ever be listed in the directory. Our object is quality - not quantity.

Is there still a lot of old sites that should be cleaned up? You bet!

Will these ever be weeded out? Time will tell - hopefully YES!
 

hutcheson

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It's not just the appearance.

There IS a rising bar, and it's no secret: I've mentioned it often enough, in every forum I visit, especially with respect to guides and directories. The first lemming down the lane gets attention from the naturalists, the ecologists, the biologists: the teachers let school out so everyone can see it. The thousandth lemming attracts only the local exterminator. By the ten thousandth lemming, schools are being closed so the children can help kill them. And that's as it ought to be, and as it must be for society to survive.

And it is also easier to stay listed than it is to get listed. If a site is already listed, the presumption is that at some point it was worth listing -- if it's now "borderline", we'll leave it if we re-review, out of respect for the other editor's decision. And even if a site is below the new border, it may survive unnoticed for months. Only if it's WAY below the new border will we drop everything and let school out to hunt it down again. This is also both as it ought to be, and as it must be, for several reasons:

-- Directories favor "large, stable" sites: both for reasons of internal efficiency and in respect to a site's established reputation. A site that may not be as large, and yet has demonstrated stability over, say, five years, has an inherent value that a new site cannot possibly have.
-- Part of maintaining a community of workers is to show consideration for each other's judgment. If a site is now considered "borderline", the fact that it once was considered worth listing can and ought to swing the balance.
-- Editors quite properly focus on reviewing more sites, not on constant monitoring of sites that are already listed.
-- From an information-theoretic point of view, a site that is different from others is more unique than all of its imitators, and deserves a more favorable review. A site whose only claim is that "other sites with the same content are ALREADY listed" -- is missing the point of "unique content" rather badly.

In this, as in everything, we represent the viewpoint of the surfer. The first site of a kind has a special value which is diminished (but not totally destroyed) by imitators.

I should mention that you say "commercial websites" -- but commercial sites can get listed as easily now as they ever could! It's the "ADVERTISING websites" that do two things: (1) in deceptively masquerading as commercial sites, they force us to be more suspicious of all commercial sites, and (2) in wasting our time in spam-whacking operations, they take editor time that would otherwise have been gladly devoted to reviewing and listing good commercial sites. The confusion is all the greater because many commercial sites have significant self-advertising verbiage, which we tolerate for the sake of their unique information. So your typical marketroidish toxic cyanobacterium, incapable of either seeing or spreading INFORMATION and only interested in propagating ADVERTISING, sees this advertising, doesn't see the reality and the unique information underneath, and goes off whining that the ODP is "favoring his competition." But it's not. It's favoring real businesses with real information in their websites, and he's not ever going to be competing with them except in his paranoid fantasies.
 

hutcheson

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I should also mention that if a webmaster wants a listing "for competitive purposes", that's pretty close to proof positive surfers don't NEED to know about him -- and we'd rather it die quickly so we can go on to review sites that are in niches NOT so over-served.
 

longcall911

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hutcheson said:
. . . typical marketroidish toxic cyanobacterium, incapable of either seeing or spreading INFORMATION and only interested in propagating ADVERTISING. . .
{If you haven’t already, you really should write a book…. It’s an obvious talent.}

So, since the bar has in fact been raised, why not get that word out more? (hutcheson: sorry I haven’t been more aware of your efforts to do so.) We know that too few people read the rules and guidelines. But there is one other methodology that I think is extremely effective, editor signatures.

Spectregunner’s sig about ‘6 months between status checks’ is all over the forum. If an editor (or two) added something like “listing quality sites is our highest priority” to his/her signature you might get fewer people asking why they can’t get an explanation.

It would be especially effective if the editors who work in the submission status area used both the 'quality listings' and '6 months between checks' statements in their signatures.

(I know, it seems obvious, redundant, and totally unnecessary. But, we've already established that most people don't get it unless it's in their face.)
 
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